Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
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06-01-2017, 10:39 AM
Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
Good morning all.

While I don't go out of my way to involve myself in debates with theists anymore, once in a while I'm buttonholed and hear the same tired arguments.

Many of theist's arguments are based in scripture. When they start spouting, I'll listen for a moment, then ask them to consider the following:

Before one uses the bible and scripture as an argument for the existence of God, the theist must prove the following:
1. That there is a God
2. That there is only one God
3. That this singular God is either the author of, or inspiration for, the bible
4. That God had a son named Jesus
5. That the stories, God's instructions and Jesus' teachings have been copied down, perfectly, by scribes some 2000 years ago
6. That those instructions have not been changed or modified in any form, through translation or copy errors, since their inception.

Only once each and every one of those proofs have been met, can the bible be used as an argument.

It seems to me that 1 through 5 cannot be proven, and we already know that the bible has been modified numerous times to fit certain political, social, cultural, economic and military aims throughout history.

Please pick apart my argument. What assumptions am I making that might be incorrect? What am I missing?
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06-01-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?
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06-01-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
You're missing the part that they don't care about what you consider good argument.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-01-2017, 10:42 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2017 11:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(06-01-2017 10:39 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  1. That there is a God
2. That there is only one God

Yahweh originated as the son of El Elyon in Babylonian mythology. He had a wife, whom the Hebrews worshiped also. Proven by archaeology. They acknowledged many gods. They had an agreement (covenant) with the god of the armies. They would worship him if he helped them in battle.

3. That this singular God is either the author of, or inspiration for, the bible.

The Judean priests assembled and edited the texts (the Torah of Moses) when they were in exile in Babylon to serve as a culturally unifying document after the Persian emperor permitted them to return to Israel. He needed them to re-create the cohesive society which had been disrupted by their defeat, so they would serve as a buffer-state between his empire and the invading Greeks. THAT's why we have a Bible. Ezra returned with the Torah under his arm, with the letter from Artaxerxes permitting the king to rule in his name, as recounted in Nehemiah.

4. That God had a son named Jesus

The term "son of god" in Hebrew society meant "righteous man". there were many "sons of god". Generals, prophets, politicians, popular guys ... were all called "sons of god". The notion that a Hebrew would EVER think another being was equal to Yahweh was an abomination. Not possible. There were however many many other "divine" beings in the "heavenly host". But dead souls (shades) ALL went to Sheol, which is not where the heavenly host lived.


5. That the stories, God's instructions and Jesus' teachings have been copied down, perfectly, by scribes some 2000 years ago
6. That those instructions have not been changed or modified in any form, through translation or copy errors, since their inception.

Ehrman has fully debunked that nonsense.





Quote:It seems to me that 1 through 5 cannot be proven,

Scholarship has totally debunked 1-5.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-01-2017, 12:22 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
- Define a god
- Define what evidence would be considered relevant for proof for said god
- Apply to all religions
- Enjoy shit show

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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07-01-2017, 01:16 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
#5 and #6 assume that Christians believe the Bible to be without error. However, most Christians will agree that the Bible may contain some scribal errors, but the general message is still inspired by God. So a better argument would be "Does the Bible contain major contradictions or inconsistencies in its central message?" If so, then it can't be God-inspired.
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07-01-2017, 06:55 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2017 07:11 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(07-01-2017 01:16 AM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  #5 and #6 assume that Christians believe the Bible to be without error. However, most Christians will agree that the Bible may contain some scribal errors, but the general message is still inspired by God. So a better argument would be "Does the Bible contain major contradictions or inconsistencies in its central message?" If so, then it can't be God-inspired.

The bible doesn't have a central message, the differences between the Old Testament and New Testament are contradictory. Just ask any Jew about that, in fact you can ask Aliza about these differences.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-01-2017, 08:26 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(06-01-2017 10:39 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Please pick apart my argument. What assumptions am I making that might be incorrect? What am I missing?

Seems pretty water-tight to me. Drinking Beverage Problem is theists will come up with bullshit "proofs" and then whine that you're biased if you point out the bullshit.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-01-2017, 12:59 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

According to Romans 11, the Jews did not believe because God hardened their hearts not to believe. The Jews didn't get a choice in the matter.

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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10-01-2017, 01:08 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(10-01-2017 12:59 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

According to Romans 11, the Jews did not believe because God hardened their hearts not to believe. The Jews didn't get a choice in the matter.

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

And us atheists same story huh? So why do these fuckers think they can go against what God hath ordained and try to change my mind?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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