Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
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10-01-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(10-01-2017 12:59 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

According to Romans 11, the Jews did not believe because God hardened their hearts not to believe. The Jews didn't get a choice in the matter.

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Yet throughout the Jewish scriptures, the message of an eternal covenant is quite clear. G-d promises the Jewish people that they will not be discarded and that they will always be the chosen people.

There is a preexisting rule of an eternal covenant which cannot be superseded by this new, contradictory information. If the covenant were to be broken, then it wouldn't have been called eternal in the first place.
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10-01-2017, 12:49 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(10-01-2017 12:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 12:59 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  According to Romans 11, the Jews did not believe because God hardened their hearts not to believe. The Jews didn't get a choice in the matter.

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Yet throughout the Jewish scriptures, the message of an eternal covenant is quite clear. G-d promises the Jewish people that they will not be discarded and that they will always be the chosen people.

There is a preexisting rule of an eternal covenant which cannot be superseded by this new, contradictory information. If the covenant were to be broken, then it wouldn't have been called eternal in the first place.

Don't worry. There are ways of BSing around that inconvenient point. Part of being a xian is always having a Divine Excuse™ to never have to admit being wrong about theological matters.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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11-01-2017, 03:37 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

Sorry Aliza.

Here it comes.

Your religion is a piece of shit too. Making fun of xians from another theistic viewpoint is, to say, utterly pathetic.

Kindly grow up.

You're boring me.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-01-2017, 04:19 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 03:37 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

Sorry Aliza.

Here it comes.

Your religion is a piece of shit too. Making fun of xians from another theistic viewpoint is, to say, utterly pathetic.

Kindly grow up.

You're boring me.

Undecided Don't be nasty to her. She's pleasant, unlike most theists who come here. I think friendship matters more than theology?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-01-2017, 06:47 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 03:37 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

Sorry Aliza.

Here it comes.

Your religion is a piece of shit too. Making fun of xians from another theistic viewpoint is, to say, utterly pathetic.

Kindly grow up.

You're boring me.

Block my username. Problem solved.
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11-01-2017, 07:07 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 04:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 03:37 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Sorry Aliza.

Here it comes.

Your religion is a piece of shit too. Making fun of xians from another theistic viewpoint is, to say, utterly pathetic.

Kindly grow up.

You're boring me.

Undecided Don't be nasty to her. She's pleasant, unlike most theists who come here. I think friendship matters more than theology?

I'll probably be sorry I posted but fuck it...

I have no beef with Aliza but Banjo does have a point. Sometimes it seems a bit hypocritical to criticize the unfounded beliefs of another when the best reasons she can give for her beliefs are comfort and tradition. Some quote about beams and motes and eyes comes to mind quite often.

It also seems a bit odd to have beliefs about the ultimate nature of reality but want to keep them private; it comes across to me sometimes as a bit arrogant that the Jews were given special knowledge that is denied to others (I understand that many take it as a charge to lead by example but it still boils down to having a special relationship that others don't get to have).

I'd certainly much rather deal with theists like Aliza and the handful of others that don't try to push their beliefs and I wish more theists were like them but I'm not a fan of giving them a pass on their beliefs entirely. Anybody willing to accept a claim without good evidence has opened their mind to accepting other claims without evidence and that is bad for them and possibly for the people around them.

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11-01-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 07:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I'll probably be sorry I posted but fuck it...

I have no beef with Aliza but Banjo does have a point. Sometimes it seems a bit hypocritical to criticize the unfounded beliefs of another when the best reasons she can give for her beliefs are comfort and tradition. Some quote about beams and motes and eyes comes to mind quite often.

I really hope you’re not sorry that you posted this. Your observation seems valid and I’m happy to address your points. If I’m being a hypocrite, maybe I need to make a change, and I’m willing to consider that.

My primary beef with Christianity is not in what they believe theologically, but in how many of them practice. I don’t approve of their use of proselytization and fear to gain members and then control them. Christians use the term “Judeo-Christian” to describe their religion and this creates an unwanted link between our two religions. It also inaccurately describes my religion -has retroactively changed it- and creates confusion and projects resentment due to the Christians onto Judaism.

Because I don’t agree with their practices, my best argument against Christianity it is to attack the validity of their religion by demonstrating that it doesn’t match up to the foundation it claims to have. It’s really the only tool in my arsenal, so I wield it often. You may have heard my spiel 1000 times, but I can’t rely on a new member to have read my past comments and know what my position is, so I introduce it every time.

(11-01-2017 07:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  It also seems a bit odd to have beliefs about the ultimate nature of reality but want to keep them private; it comes across to me sometimes as a bit arrogant that the Jews were given special knowledge that is denied to others (I understand that many take it as a charge to lead by example but it still boils down to having a special relationship that others don't get to have).

Gentiles don’t need to know Torah. If they wish to learn it, they can come to us on their own terms and do so, but what benefit could it possibly offer them? If gentiles wish to have a special relationship with G-d, they don’t need the Torah to do that. They also don’t need Torah to live happy, healthy, productive lives, and I generally think they’d be less happy as Jews than they are as gentiles. (So why bother?)

Maybe our resistance to share Torah is strange to you because perhaps proselytization is your default expectation. Jews do not mean to share the Torah with gentiles because it’s always been our concern that the gentiles would take it, completely misunderstand it and use it to invent Jesus. The next thing you know, they’ll be out fighting the school board to ban science because of the badly misunderstood creation story in Genesis.

That said, I think I’ve offered to have a private conversation with individuals (you too, if memory serves) to further explain what Judaism is and isn’t. I compare and contrast Judaism with Christianity here on the forum, but I won’t get too deep into what Judaism is publicly. It’s not why I’m here.

(11-01-2017 07:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I'd certainly much rather deal with theists like Aliza and the handful of others that don't try to push their beliefs and I wish more theists were like them but I'm not a fan of giving them a pass on their beliefs entirely. Anybody willing to accept a claim without good evidence has opened their mind to accepting other claims without evidence and that is bad for them and possibly for the people around them.

I’m not asking you, or anyone else to believe. The only thing I’ve hoped to accomplish here is to convey my thoughts and be understood, but not believed.
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11-01-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 08:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I really hope you’re not sorry that you posted this. Your observation seems valid and I’m happy to address your points. If I’m being a hypocrite, maybe I need to make a change, and I’m willing to consider that.

I was hesitant to dive into this because I know it will sound harsher than intended.

Quote:My primary beef with Christianity is not in what they believe theologically, but in how many of them practice. I don’t approve of their use of proselytization and fear to gain members and then control them. Christians use the term “Judeo-Christian” to describe their religion and this creates an unwanted link between our two religions. It also inaccurately describes my religion -has retroactively changed it- and creates confusion and projects resentment due to the Christians onto Judaism.

Understood and agreed; Christians rewrote the history and try to have their cake and eat it too by disparaging Judaism at the same time they embrace it (or at least their version of it). In my experience most Christians know little about it or their own history.

Quote:Because I don’t agree with their practices, my best argument against Christianity it is to attack the validity of their religion by demonstrating that it doesn’t match up to the foundation it claims to have. It’s really the only tool in my arsenal, so I wield it often. You may have heard my spiel 1000 times, but I can’t rely on a new member to have read my past comments and know what my position is, so I introduce it every time.

This is where it sometimes seems hypocritical. From an atheist perspective, it is like listening to somebody arguing over whether the original Star Trek is "truer" than the Abrams version. When you point out that their claims don't match your claims it carries little weight since I don't see any support for your claims either. yes, the Christians butchered it but you really can't say they are wrong, only that they are different.

When you say that it is your book and your people wrote it so they should know what is means I don't see that that matters. Perhaps the Jews misunderstood and for thousands of years they wrote explanations for their version that were equally wrong and that's why a new prophet was sent to fix the misunderstanding.

It is completely valid to point out that the Jewish interpretation of the Torah/OT is different and that the Christians reworded it in translation. I just see no justification for claiming that either interpretation is better or truer or anything other than older or newer.

Quote:Gentiles don’t need to know Torah. If they wish to learn it, they can come to us on their own terms and do so, but what benefit could it possibly offer them?

If there is no benefit to them, what benefit is it to you? The very nature of your question sets up an us-vs-them mentality that sets the Jews apart with a special relationship with their god. It may be that the intent is just that each nation has their own unique relationship but the impression that comes across, at least for me, is often one of privilege.

Quote:If gentiles wish to have a special relationship with G-d, they don’t need the Torah to do that. They also don’t need Torah to live happy, healthy, productive lives, and I generally think they’d be less happy as Jews than they are as gentiles. (So why bother?)

I don't think anybody needs the Torah to live happy, healthy lives and I generally think everybody would be better off if everybody abandoned religious beliefs. What I don't get is why you think the Jews should continue to accept the Torah or to value it as anything other than cultural history.

Quote:Maybe our resistance to share Torah is strange to you because perhaps proselytization is your default expectation.

If I had something that I believed was "Truth" then I think it would be selfish and immoral not to want to share it. Christians take it too far in many cases but in some ways I have more respect for their apparent motivations. This feeds back into the impression that Jews want to keep something they believe is of immense importance to themselves out of a sense or privilege for themselves or disdain for others. Again, I'm not claiming that is the intent but only that it is how it can appear from an outside view.

Quote:Jews do not mean to share the Torah with gentiles because it’s always been our concern that the gentiles would take it, completely misunderstand it and use it to invent Jesus. The next thing you know, they’ll be out fighting the school board to ban science because of the badly misunderstood creation story in Genesis.

Perhaps if the Jews were more public about sharing their interpretation it would not have gotten so corrupted. I'm certainly not advocating more proselytizing but when you keep the books to yourselves you can't really complain than others misinterpreted them and that the stories diverged over time. What else would you expect?

Quote:That said, I think I’ve offered to have a private conversation with individuals (you too, if memory serves) to further explain what Judaism is and isn’t. I compare and contrast Judaism with Christianity here on the forum, but I won’t get too deep into what Judaism is publicly. It’s not why I’m here.

It isn't a question of what Judaism is because that doesn't really matter to me as an atheist (except that I like to understand things) but just that two things keep nagging at me when I read your replies to Christians...
1) when you think you know what something that is fundamental to how things work is it worse to try to push your beliefs on others or to keep quiet and let others flounder?
2) can you say somebody else got the story wrong when you don't have good evidence that you have the story right?

Quote:I’m not asking you, or anyone else to believe. The only thing I’ve hoped to accomplish here is to convey my thoughts and be understood, but not believed.

Then I'd say you've succeeded (on all 3 counts Big Grin)

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11-01-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 07:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I'd certainly much rather deal with theists like Aliza and the handful of others that don't try to push their beliefs and I wish more theists were like them but I'm not a fan of giving them a pass on their beliefs entirely. Anybody willing to accept a claim without good evidence has opened their mind to accepting other claims without evidence and that is bad for them and possibly for the people around them.

I don't give 'em a pass, but the one thing that irritates me about *anyone* is evangelism. I reckon if it's rude of them to push their beliefs on me, then it's rude of me to push my beliefs on them. That means to me, that the time when I'll ever challenge Aliza (or other theists who're actually fucken normal human beings) is when there's a discussion that we both choose to be part of. Other than that, as long as she's not pushing laws based on religion or whatever, I have no beef. There's not enough time to convert everyone to my special viewpoint, as long as we get along who cares?

There's a quote in the book Wild Swans by Jung Chang, where the authoress makes friends with some hardcore Mao supporter, at a time when politics in China was a bit dicey, but she said something that I always remember (I was reading it at a time in Zimbabwe when politics was a bit dicey too) to the effect of that by this time she'd realised that whatever ideologies people espoused, the more important thing was whether or not they were a kind person. The rest is interesting and all, but life is richer with more friends IMO.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-01-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(11-01-2017 01:00 PM)morondog Wrote:  There's a quote in the book Wild Swans by Jung Chang, where the authoress makes friends with some hardcore Mao supporter, at a time when politics in China was a bit dicey, but she said something that I always remember (I was reading it at a time in Zimbabwe when politics was a bit dicey too) to the effect of that by this time she'd realised that whatever ideologies people espoused, the more important thing was whether or not they were a kind person. The rest is interesting and all, but life is richer with more friends IMO.

Can't agree with such view. If someone would be Mao, Stalin or Hitler supporter then I wouldn't give a shit about how nice they were, ideology they espouse would show their true color - niceness to some, death, hunger and suffering to others deemed subhumans, parasites, or class enemies.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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