Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
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12-01-2017, 06:45 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 06:28 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 06:12 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I think Aliza is an asset to the forum. We often get a lot of scared transitioning Christians on here and having a theist who can calmly explain the differences between Judaism and Christianity is huge in helping those who want to leave Christianity behind.

I do see value in pointing out to Christians that Jews interpret the scriptures differently. I just don't think that will make much of an impression on them.

Quote:As far as Aliza being a hypocrite--I don't see it. She does correct Christians who try to distort her belief system, which she has every right to do because they do distort the crap out of her religious texts, but how is that being hypocritical?

I knew I'd be sorry to have started this... Big Grin

Where I see hypocrisy is in criticizing Christians for interpreting the scriptures incorrectly when there is no basis for claiming that the traditional interpretation is correct. They are definitely different but neither has as valid claim to truth.

We just had a transitioning theist on here a month or so ago in the Personal Issues section thanking Aliza for her input on Jewish beliefs and her comments on Jesus not being in the OT and how it helped her move away from Christianity.

If you read the Scriptures and study the historicity of the texts, the Jewish interpretation actually makes much more logical sense than the Christian interpretation. Logical in the sense of why things are worded as they are and what these writers were referring to. Once you tear apart the texts and study them in the context of the goings on at the time, it is really clear that the Christians distorted texts to make Jesus fit.
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12-01-2017, 06:55 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 06:28 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 06:12 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I think Aliza is an asset to the forum. We often get a lot of scared transitioning Christians on here and having a theist who can calmly explain the differences between Judaism and Christianity is huge in helping those who want to leave Christianity behind.

I do see value in pointing out to Christians that Jews interpret the scriptures differently. I just don't think that will make much of an impression on them.

Quote:As far as Aliza being a hypocrite--I don't see it. She does correct Christians who try to distort her belief system, which she has every right to do because they do distort the crap out of her religious texts, but how is that being hypocritical?

I knew I'd be sorry to have started this... Big Grin

Where I see hypocrisy is in criticizing Christians for interpreting the scriptures incorrectly when there is no basis for claiming that the traditional interpretation is correct. They are definitely different but neither has as valid claim to truth.

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13-01-2017, 07:10 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 06:45 PM)jennybee Wrote:  We just had a transitioning theist on here a month or so ago in the Personal Issues section thanking Aliza for her input on Jewish beliefs and her comments on Jesus not being in the OT and how it helped her move away from Christianity.

I must have missed that but I already said I saw value in pointing out the differences.

Quote:If you read the Scriptures and study the historicity of the texts, the Jewish interpretation actually makes much more logical sense than the Christian interpretation. Logical in the sense of why things are worded as they are and what these writers were referring to. Once you tear apart the texts and study them in the context of the goings on at the time, it is really clear that the Christians distorted texts to make Jesus fit.

My point was only that neither interpretation has any claim to truth. I have no issue in saying that they are different or that the Christians took the Jewish texts and modified them and changed the meaning. The only issue is in saying that the Christians are wrong about their claims because they did not keep the Jewish interpretation.

Person 1: "Here is a fantasy story I wrote"
Person 2: "I took your story and made some changes to suit myself"
Person 1: "Your story isn't true because you changed my story"

The reason Person 2's story isn't true is not because it was a revision of an existing story but because that original story was itself not true. Consider that Person 2 might have said "I took your story and corrected some points based on other information I have".

This is not meant to be some big attack on Aliza and I knew it might be taken for more than it is. I just sometimes think her critique of Christians strays from correcting their misunderstanding of what Jews believe into telling them that unless they believe it the way the Jews do they are wrong and I think that is not justified.

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13-01-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 07:10 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 06:45 PM)jennybee Wrote:  We just had a transitioning theist on here a month or so ago in the Personal Issues section thanking Aliza for her input on Jewish beliefs and her comments on Jesus not being in the OT and how it helped her move away from Christianity.

I must have missed that but I already said I saw value in pointing out the differences.

Quote:If you read the Scriptures and study the historicity of the texts, the Jewish interpretation actually makes much more logical sense than the Christian interpretation. Logical in the sense of why things are worded as they are and what these writers were referring to. Once you tear apart the texts and study them in the context of the goings on at the time, it is really clear that the Christians distorted texts to make Jesus fit.

My point was only that neither interpretation has any claim to truth. I have no issue in saying that they are different or that the Christians took the Jewish texts and modified them and changed the meaning. The only issue is in saying that the Christians are wrong about their claims because they did not keep the Jewish interpretation.

Person 1: "Here is a fantasy story I wrote"
Person 2: "I took your story and made some changes to suit myself"
Person 1: "Your story isn't true because you changed my story"

The reason Person 2's story isn't true is not because it was a revision of an existing story but because that original story was itself not true. Consider that Person 2 might have said "I took your story and corrected some points based on other information I have".

This is not meant to be some big attack on Aliza and I knew it might be taken for more than it is. I just sometimes think her critique of Christians strays from correcting their misunderstanding of what Jews believe into telling them that unless they believe it the way the Jews do they are wrong and I think that is not justified.

I used to get upset about how they changed the Star Trek canon from the old series to the Next Generation.

Zefram Chocran
was NOT from Earth! Censored

The OT/NT discrepancies are exactly the same, except people actually believe it's reality. It's all fan fiction, but it makes for a more enjoyable conversation if it's accepted at the outset that they are both made up stories.

Then it becomes just a matter of opinion- is Kirk/Moses or Picard/Jesus the better captain/messiah?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-01-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 07:57 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:10 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I must have missed that but I already said I saw value in pointing out the differences.


My point was only that neither interpretation has any claim to truth. I have no issue in saying that they are different or that the Christians took the Jewish texts and modified them and changed the meaning. The only issue is in saying that the Christians are wrong about their claims because they did not keep the Jewish interpretation.

Person 1: "Here is a fantasy story I wrote"
Person 2: "I took your story and made some changes to suit myself"
Person 1: "Your story isn't true because you changed my story"

The reason Person 2's story isn't true is not because it was a revision of an existing story but because that original story was itself not true. Consider that Person 2 might have said "I took your story and corrected some points based on other information I have".

This is not meant to be some big attack on Aliza and I knew it might be taken for more than it is. I just sometimes think her critique of Christians strays from correcting their misunderstanding of what Jews believe into telling them that unless they believe it the way the Jews do they are wrong and I think that is not justified.

I used to get upset about how they changed the Star Trek canon from the old series to the Next Generation.

Zefram Chocran
was NOT from Earth! Censored

The OT/NT discrepancies are exactly the same, except people actually believe it's reality. It's all fan fiction, but it makes for a more enjoyable conversation if it's accepted at the outset that they are both made up stories.

Then it becomes just a matter of opinion- is Kirk/Moses or Picard/Jesus the better captain/messiah?

It's not about which Captain you like best. It's about what you do with that decision and one of the choices causes people to live in fear as fundamentalists, which in turn causes them to boycott the education system, and intrude on my happiness.
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13-01-2017, 09:03 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 07:10 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 06:45 PM)jennybee Wrote:  We just had a transitioning theist on here a month or so ago in the Personal Issues section thanking Aliza for her input on Jewish beliefs and her comments on Jesus not being in the OT and how it helped her move away from Christianity.

I must have missed that but I already said I saw value in pointing out the differences.

Quote:If you read the Scriptures and study the historicity of the texts, the Jewish interpretation actually makes much more logical sense than the Christian interpretation. Logical in the sense of why things are worded as they are and what these writers were referring to. Once you tear apart the texts and study them in the context of the goings on at the time, it is really clear that the Christians distorted texts to make Jesus fit.

My point was only that neither interpretation has any claim to truth. I have no issue in saying that they are different or that the Christians took the Jewish texts and modified them and changed the meaning. The only issue is in saying that the Christians are wrong about their claims because they did not keep the Jewish interpretation.

Person 1: "Here is a fantasy story I wrote"
Person 2: "I took your story and made some changes to suit myself"
Person 1: "Your story isn't true because you changed my story"

The reason Person 2's story isn't true is not because it was a revision of an existing story but because that original story was itself not true. Consider that Person 2 might have said "I took your story and corrected some points based on other information I have".

This is not meant to be some big attack on Aliza and I knew it might be taken for more than it is. I just sometimes think her critique of Christians strays from correcting their misunderstanding of what Jews believe into telling them that unless they believe it the way the Jews do they are wrong and I think that is not justified.

You're right you did mention the differences have value, but you also mentioned you didn't think pointing out Jesus was not in the OT to Christians was helpful. As such, I was pointing out a recent example where a newbie found that type of info helpful to them during their transition.

I also hear what you are saying and like you, I don't believe either versions are true. But equating someone's culture, heritage, and tradition to Star Trek is not really a fair comparison.

For example, while I'm an atheist, I have incorporated many yogic principles and "spirituality" into my life. I feel various yogic principles have helped me to live a better life--better in the sense of happier. The Jewish tradition is also a spirituality-aka philosophy of life-that people of that faith hold dear. Whether you agree with the idea of a deity or not, it's still someone's heritage and tradition and something they associate with family and culture. It makes up who they are, part of their identity. So to minimize that and to equate that to Star Trek is unfair, imo.

Re: arguing over which version is better. Again, this isn't Star Trek. This is someone's heritage, culture, tradition, identity. And the Christians have clearly taken that away and told the Jewish people "Nope, sorry, your traditions that you came up with are wrong, so go away now, this is our thing now." I've also seen Christians blame Jews for the death of Jesus. So they take their texts and their traditions and their culture and their heritage, distort the shit out of it and then blame them for killing off their main character. Yeah, I would not stay quiet about that either.

In terms of my own life, as an atheist, I have been in various yoga classes. All different styles and teachers. For me, I like traditional yoga. I like to stay true to the heart of it. I have taken classes where instructors have given students incorrect info about yogic traditions or treat it like a gym class. And that bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't but it does. And yes, in talking to my friends after class, I have corrected what the instructor said so my friends don't walk away with incorrect info. Yoga is a part of me, it's what I do, it's helped me live a better life and I have great respect for the ancient yogis who came up with all of this. So yeah, I don't want their vision, philosophy, and words mangled. I can see how Aliza feels the same way about her traditions.
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13-01-2017, 09:41 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 09:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  You're right you did mention the differences have value, but you also mentioned you didn't think pointing out Jesus was not in the OT to Christians was helpful. As such, I was pointing out a recent example where a newbie found that type of info helpful to them during their transition.

I said I didn't think it would make much of an impression and I was speaking in general terms. I had said I thought it had value because I recognize that in some cases it might spark something.

Quote:I also hear what you are saying and like you, I don't believe either versions are true. But equating someone's culture, heritage, and tradition to Star Trek is not really a fair comparison.

If I gave the impression that I was comparing Jewish culture to Star Trek I apologize. I was comparing arguing over whether the Jewish god concept or the Christian god concept is right. I have no issue at all with Jewish culture and traditions except for that little "god exists" bit. The rest is all food, family, and friends and those values I applaud.

Quote:For example, while I'm an atheist, I have incorporated many yogic principles and "spirituality" into my life. I feel various yogic principles have helped me to live a better life--better in the sense of happier. The Jewish tradition is also a spirituality-aka philosophy of life-that people of that faith hold dear. Whether you agree with the idea of a deity or not, it's still someone's heritage and tradition and something they associate with family and culture. It makes up who they are, part of their identity. So to minimize that and to equate that to Star Trek is unfair, imo.

I don't disagree with any of that and that's not what I was comparing.

Quote:Re: arguing over which version is better. Again, this isn't Star Trek. This is someone's heritage, culture, tradition, identity. And the Christians have clearly taken that away and told the Jewish people "Nope, sorry, your traditions that you came up with are wrong, so go away now, this is our thing now."

and I have the same problem with the Christians saying "we are right and you are wrong" as I do with the Jews saying it. I'm not sure how to make it clear... when Aliza says that Christians are not interpreting things the way the Jews do she is completely right and there's no issue. When she says "Jews traditionally believe X" she is completely right and and there's no issue. I only see a red flag when she ventures into "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe". I see that same red flag when Christians say "Jews got it wrong and we fixed it". Neither claim is justified as far as I can see.

Quote:I've also seen Christians blame Jews for the death of Jesus. So they take their texts and their traditions and their culture and their heritage, distort the shit out of it and then blame them for killing off their main character. Yeah, I would not stay quiet about that either.

I also don't blame Jews for not liking what Christians did with their stories and they certainly have very justified grievances over treatment they've received. Again, the only point is that they can't say that Christian beliefs are wrong simply because they are different. All they can say is that they are different. When the Jews can present evidence that their stories are more than myths and legends and that their god exists then they will have justification to say that the Christians are wrong.

Quote:In terms of my own life, as an atheist, I have been in various yoga classes. All different styles and teachers. For me, I like traditional yoga. I like to stay true to the heart of it. I have taken classes where instructors have given students incorrect info about yogic traditions or treat it like a gym class. And that bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't but it does. And yes, in talking to my friends after class, I have corrected what the instructor said so my friends don't walk away with incorrect info. Yoga is a part of me, it's what I do, it's helped me live a better life and I have great respect for the ancient yogis who came up with all of this. So yeah, I don't want their vision, philosophy, and words mangled. I can see how Aliza feels the same way about her traditions.

Correcting factual information is entirely legitimate. If somebody else tried various yoga classes and decided they liked one that was more of a "gym class" and wasn't interested in the history and philosophy but still got pleasure from participating would you say that they were wrong or just that they probably should call what they do something else?

To go back to my example, I grew up on the original Star Trek and enjoyed a lot of TNG/DS9/Voyager/etc because they mostly stayed with the story. The newest movies rewrote history and I don't like what they did. What I can't do is say that their version of Kirk and Spock and the rest are wrong because I prefer the original. When the Lord of the Rings trilogy came out the first movie stuck closely to the book and I enjoyed it. The second went off in all directions and revised the story so much it wasn't recognizable and I have never bothered with the third because it was too badly corrupted. What I can't say is that Faragorn didn't act the way the second movie portrayed him based on my preference for the way he acted in the book. He didn't act any way because he didn't exist. I can say I prefer the book version or that the book version is different from the movie version but not that the movie got his character wrong.

Aliza has her traditions about what the scriptures mean and she has every right to note that Christians changed the meaning when they incorporated it into their new theology. What I don't think she can legitimately say is that they got it wrong in an objective sense.

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13-01-2017, 09:46 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 07:57 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I used to get upset about how they changed the Star Trek canon from the old series to the Next Generation.

Zefram Chocran
was NOT from Earth! Censored

OK, you've lost me...

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13-01-2017, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2017 11:08 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 09:41 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 09:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  You're right you did mention the differences have value, but you also mentioned you didn't think pointing out Jesus was not in the OT to Christians was helpful. As such, I was pointing out a recent example where a newbie found that type of info helpful to them during their transition.

I said I didn't think it would make much of an impression and I was speaking in general terms. I had said I thought it had value because I recognize that in some cases it might spark something.

Quote:I also hear what you are saying and like you, I don't believe either versions are true. But equating someone's culture, heritage, and tradition to Star Trek is not really a fair comparison.

If I gave the impression that I was comparing Jewish culture to Star Trek I apologize. I was comparing arguing over whether the Jewish god concept or the Christian god concept is right. I have no issue at all with Jewish culture and traditions except for that little "god exists" bit. The rest is all food, family, and friends and those values I applaud.

Quote:For example, while I'm an atheist, I have incorporated many yogic principles and "spirituality" into my life. I feel various yogic principles have helped me to live a better life--better in the sense of happier. The Jewish tradition is also a spirituality-aka philosophy of life-that people of that faith hold dear. Whether you agree with the idea of a deity or not, it's still someone's heritage and tradition and something they associate with family and culture. It makes up who they are, part of their identity. So to minimize that and to equate that to Star Trek is unfair, imo.

I don't disagree with any of that and that's not what I was comparing.

Quote:Re: arguing over which version is better. Again, this isn't Star Trek. This is someone's heritage, culture, tradition, identity. And the Christians have clearly taken that away and told the Jewish people "Nope, sorry, your traditions that you came up with are wrong, so go away now, this is our thing now."

and I have the same problem with the Christians saying "we are right and you are wrong" as I do with the Jews saying it. I'm not sure how to make it clear... when Aliza says that Christians are not interpreting things the way the Jews do she is completely right and there's no issue. When she says "Jews traditionally believe X" she is completely right and and there's no issue. I only see a red flag when she ventures into "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe". I see that same red flag when Christians say "Jews got it wrong and we fixed it". Neither claim is justified as far as I can see.

Quote:I've also seen Christians blame Jews for the death of Jesus. So they take their texts and their traditions and their culture and their heritage, distort the shit out of it and then blame them for killing off their main character. Yeah, I would not stay quiet about that either.

I also don't blame Jews for not liking what Christians did with their stories and they certainly have very justified grievances over treatment they've received. Again, the only point is that they can't say that Christian beliefs are wrong simply because they are different. All they can say is that they are different. When the Jews can present evidence that their stories are more than myths and legends and that their god exists then they will have justification to say that the Christians are wrong.

Quote:In terms of my own life, as an atheist, I have been in various yoga classes. All different styles and teachers. For me, I like traditional yoga. I like to stay true to the heart of it. I have taken classes where instructors have given students incorrect info about yogic traditions or treat it like a gym class. And that bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't but it does. And yes, in talking to my friends after class, I have corrected what the instructor said so my friends don't walk away with incorrect info. Yoga is a part of me, it's what I do, it's helped me live a better life and I have great respect for the ancient yogis who came up with all of this. So yeah, I don't want their vision, philosophy, and words mangled. I can see how Aliza feels the same way about her traditions.

Correcting factual information is entirely legitimate. If somebody else tried various yoga classes and decided they liked one that was more of a "gym class" and wasn't interested in the history and philosophy but still got pleasure from participating would you say that they were wrong or just that they probably should call what they do something else?

To go back to my example, I grew up on the original Star Trek and enjoyed a lot of TNG/DS9/Voyager/etc because they mostly stayed with the story. The newest movies rewrote history and I don't like what they did. What I can't do is say that their version of Kirk and Spock and the rest are wrong because I prefer the original. When the Lord of the Rings trilogy came out the first movie stuck closely to the book and I enjoyed it. The second went off in all directions and revised the story so much it wasn't recognizable and I have never bothered with the third because it was too badly corrupted. What I can't say is that Faragorn didn't act the way the second movie portrayed him based on my preference for the way he acted in the book. He didn't act any way because he didn't exist. I can say I prefer the book version or that the book version is different from the movie version but not that the movie got his character wrong.

Aliza has her traditions about what the scriptures mean and she has every right to note that Christians changed the meaning when they incorporated it into their new theology. What I don't think she can legitimately say is that they got it wrong in an objective sense.

If someone prefers a gym style yoga class, I am totally fine with it. But I still will correct inaccuracies. Then, they can take that info and do with it as they wish. But at least I feel like I gave them correct information. If they are doing gym style yoga, I prefer when they call it something like "Power Yoga" (which some do). Or something that implies it is not traditional.

I do see what you are saying re: I only see a red flag when she ventures into "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe" territory. However, Christians are wrong Tongue What I mean is they are interpreting Jewish tradition/beliefs/texts/culture wrong. From all the research I have done, Christians absolutely are distorting *Jewish* texts. As such, saying "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe" is a fair statement.

Now if you are taking this statement to mean "My God is real and yours isn't" then I agree with you. But I still don't think that makes her a hypocrite, just a theist. Wink They're going to stick up for their deity, for the culture they were raised in. It's their worldview, one that's been shaped by their culture. I can see how some may view that as potentially hypocritical, and maybe on the surface it is. But on another level, they are simply sticking up for the home team Tongue
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13-01-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 09:41 AM)unfogged Wrote:  To go back to my example, I grew up on the original Star Trek and enjoyed a lot of TNG/DS9/Voyager/etc because they mostly stayed with the story. The newest movies rewrote history and I don't like what they did. What I can't do is say that their version of Kirk and Spock and the rest are wrong because I prefer the original. When the Lord of the Rings trilogy came out the first movie stuck closely to the book and I enjoyed it. The second went off in all directions and revised the story so much it wasn't recognizable and I have never bothered with the third because it was too badly corrupted. What I can't say is that Faragorn didn't act the way the second movie portrayed him based on my preference for the way he acted in the book. He didn't act any way because he didn't exist. I can say I prefer the book version or that the book version is different from the movie version but not that the movie got his character wrong.

Nerd alert Tongue

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