Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
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13-01-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(13-01-2017 10:20 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I do see what you are saying re: I only see a red flag when she ventures into "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe" territory. However, Christians are wrong Tongue What I mean is they are interpreting Jewish tradition/beliefs/texts/culture wrong. From all the research I have done, Christians absolutely are distorting *Jewish* texts. As such, saying "Christians are wrong because that isn't what Jews believe" is a fair statement.

I think we agree...
"Christians are wrong [about how Jews interpret scripture] because that isn't what Jews believe" -- fair statement
"Christians are wrong [about how scripture should be interpreted] because that isn't what Jews believe" -- not a fair statement IMO

Quote:But I still don't think that makes her a hypocrite, just a theist. Wink They're going to stick up for their deity, for the culture they were raised in. It's their worldview, one that's been shaped by their culture. I can see how some may view that as potentially hypocritical, and maybe on the surface it is. But on another level, they are simply sticking up for the home team Tongue

Perhaps it is just implication that Christians have no good reason for the way they interpret the scriptures but the Jews do. I know that they have a long tradition that they find satisfying but they don't have a good reason for believing any of it is actually true.

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14-01-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 06:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  What I don't understand is clinging to the belief that the god actually exists. I don't see that you need that to keep the rest.

Exactly what belief system are you referring to? How does my life change if I do not believe in G-d as such that I would be better off?
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14-01-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(14-01-2017 12:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 06:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  What I don't understand is clinging to the belief that the god actually exists. I don't see that you need that to keep the rest.

Exactly what belief system are you referring to? How does my life change if I do not believe in G-d as such that I would be better off?

I did not mention a belief system, just a belief. You currently believe that a god exists and, in my opinion, that means you are open to believing things on bad evidence or on no evidence. Your god belief itself may not make a difference but it sets the stage for believing other things that may be harmful or lead to bad decisions.

How would your life be worse off if you kept your cultural traditions but no longer believed that a god actually exists?

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14-01-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(14-01-2017 01:49 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 12:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Exactly what belief system are you referring to? How does my life change if I do not believe in G-d as such that I would be better off?

I did not mention a belief system, just a belief. You currently believe that a god exists and, in my opinion, that means you are open to believing things on bad evidence or on no evidence. Your god belief itself may not make a difference but it sets the stage for believing other things that may be harmful or lead to bad decisions.

How would your life be worse off if you kept your cultural traditions but no longer believed that a god actually exists?

My life would be no worse off if I didn't believe in G-d. Nothing would change at all.

Out of curiosity, what potentially harmful lines of thinking am I exposing myself to as a theist?
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15-01-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(14-01-2017 02:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 01:49 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I did not mention a belief system, just a belief. You currently believe that a god exists and, in my opinion, that means you are open to believing things on bad evidence or on no evidence. Your god belief itself may not make a difference but it sets the stage for believing other things that may be harmful or lead to bad decisions.

How would your life be worse off if you kept your cultural traditions but no longer believed that a god actually exists?

My life would be no worse off if I didn't believe in G-d. Nothing would change at all.

Then I still wonder why you believe it. If it doesn't add anything and there is no good evidence for it to be true then I'm at a loss to understand why anybody would hang on to it.

Quote:Out of curiosity, what potentially harmful lines of thinking am I exposing myself to as a theist?

You are open to accepting things as true without sufficient evidence. Do you not see how that leaves you vulnerable to mistakes in judgement?

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15-01-2017, 07:56 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 06:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  We're back to where we started with my question of how Jews can course-correct Christians when both are arguing unsubstantiated beliefs. You say they don't understand the Jewish scriptures and they say that you are the ones that misinterpret your own scriptures. My question is whether either side has any basis for saying they have a superior claim. The Jews have a longer tradition but that doesn't add any weight to the claim.

You are absolutely correct that Christians and Jews have different interpretations of Jewish scripture and of the nature of Jesus. From a Jewish perspective they have it wrong. From a Christian perspective you have it wrong. From my perspective it looks to me like you are arguing about how many buttons were on the coat that Captain Nemo typically wore.

Scriptures, n.: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.
Ambrose Bierce

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-01-2017, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2017 09:05 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(15-01-2017 07:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 02:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  My life would be no worse off if I didn't believe in G-d. Nothing would change at all.

Then I still wonder why you believe it. If it doesn't add anything and there is no good evidence for it to be true then I'm at a loss to understand why anybody would hang on to it.

It boils down to this: I have examined the evidence, and I’ve come to a different conclusion than you’ve come to. I suspect we’re actually examining different evidence and using different criteria to define G-d, and what must constitute G-d’s existence… but the end result is that I’ve considered both points of view, and I found in favor of there being a G-d.

(15-01-2017 07:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 02:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Out of curiosity, what potentially harmful lines of thinking am I exposing myself to as a theist?
You are open to accepting things as true without sufficient evidence. Do you not see how that leaves you vulnerable to mistakes in judgement?

No, I really don’t see. And what’s so horrible about having made a mistake in judgement? I don’t have this compulsive need to be right. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I learn from the error and try to apply the lesson to future decisions. All I can do is try to make the best, most educated decisions with the available information. That’s all anyone does. We don’t really know anything for sure, but we make our decisions based on our interpretation of the best information we can get our hands on. Whether people are willing to admit it or not, all of their decisions are made pending new information. Close minded people may have a problem here because they may be unwilling to accept new information, but that has nothing to do with theism. That's just good old fashioned arrogance and stubbornness.
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15-01-2017, 09:24 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(12-01-2017 02:22 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism is about how you live your life, not about what you think in your picture.

(12-01-2017 02:22 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't think non-Jews are flawed and need Torah to fix them and to help them understand the universe. Can't they just get a degree in biology and find happiness and truth in curing cancer? I don’t believe that there is one, single, valid way to live, and suggesting that everyone needs to believe what I believe and act just like me is the ultimate in arrogance. I’d also fear that we’d lose the critical component of diverse thought, which I believe we need in order to progress as a society.

This is precisely why I like and respect jews. They (for the most part) want to be left alone and if you don't buy it. Whatever. Christians sort of ignored this part of judaism unfortunately and opted for the virus approach.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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15-01-2017, 09:31 AM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2017 09:37 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(15-01-2017 09:03 AM)Aliza Wrote:  No, I really don’t see. And what’s so horrible about having made a mistake in judgement? I don’t have this compulsive need to be right. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I learn from the error and try to apply the lesson to future decisions. All I can do is try to make the best, most educated decisions with the available information. That’s all anyone does. We don’t really know anything for sure, but we make our decisions based on our interpretation of the best information we can get our hands on. Whether people are willing to admit it or not, all of their decisions are made pending new information. Close minded people may have a problem here because they may be unwilling to accept new information, but that has nothing to do with theism. That's just good old fashioned arrogance and stubbornness.

I think his point (and correct me if I'm wrong unfogged) is that without evidence to support a claim, how do you know you aren't under some false impression? I agree with you that if someone doesn't care if what they think is true, the truth is irrelevant but for those of us who wish to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible, evidence is a very big deal.

If you can make an argument for the existance of Yahweh and a Hindu can make, word for word, the same argument for Ganesh, how do you know who is actually correct (or whether any of you are)? If a follower or potential follower wants to know what is actually true, they should reserve judgement until after some actual evidence has been presented.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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15-01-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Theists using the bible as argument: please dissect my rebuttal
(06-01-2017 10:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Those seem like reasonable things to expect someone to prove if they're asking you to believe. I'd also add that Christianity makes the claim that they are the natural continuation of Judaism, yet they can't seem to get the Jews on board with their theology. Why not? What critical flaw does the founding religion find with Christianity that for 2,000 years, the Christians have been unsuccessful in persuading them to convert?

There's plenty of Jewish converts, but you can't win them all.

And it seems that over the years, absent of an alternative messiah's arrival, the Jewish conceptions of a messiah has started to become vague, and often spiritualized entity, with the Reform tradition rejecting it all together. Changing their beliefs in a coming redeemer, to redemption. I'd say the problem is a lack of imagination, an ability to conceptualize the thing they are awaiting for, to see whether it has come already.

And the last I remember, your own religious beliefs were summed up as not seeing beliefs as particularly important, and all that matters is doing good deeds. That God doesn't care what we believe as long as we do good things, except when in comes to Christians. He apparently cares about what christians believe, particularly in regards to Christ, regardless if they do good deeds or not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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