Theists, what brings you to TTA?
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14-10-2015, 06:33 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 06:08 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 10:42 AM)skyking Wrote:  It is habit to "return fire" in this mental version of The Crusades with a blind fervor, but I think many of these theists are here on the path to their eventual deconversion. A little compassion goes a long way.
Deconversion? Why would you want to remove someone from Faith? I understand that many where born into misconception and that false doctrine causes confusion and weak Faith. It's just not cool. I'll leave it at that. Just not in the mood to fight right now I guess.

Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE. Faith is an epistemology. It's a method and process people use to understand reality. Faith-based claims are knowledge claims. For example, "I have faith that jesus christ will heal my sickness because it says so in Luke" is a knowledge claim. The utterer of this statement is asserting jesus will heal her. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. For example, when someone says "jesus walked on water" (matthew 14:22-33), that person is claiming TO KNOW there was an historical figure names jesus and that he, unaided by technology, literally walked across the surface of the water. This is a knowledge claim...an objective statement of fact.

Your religious beliefs typically depend on the community in which you were raised or lived. The spiritual experiences of people in ancient greece, medieval japan or 21st century saudia arabia do not lead to belief in christianity. It seems, therefore, that religious belief very likely tracks not truth but social conditioning.

Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010, 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick & Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997, 2011, Smith 1979, STenger & Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc)

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth. Here are five points believers/non believers should be able to agree upon.

1) There are different faith traditions.
2) Different faith traditions make different truth claims.
3) The truth claims of some faith traditions contradict the truth claims of other faith traditions. For example, Muslims believe muhammad (570-632) was the last prophet (Sura 33:40). Mormons believe Joseph Smith (1805-1844), who lived after muhammad was a prophet.
4) It cannot both be the case that muhammad was the last prophet, and someone who lived after him was also a prophet.
5) Therefore: At LEAST one of these claims must be false....perhaps both....

it is impossible to figure out which of these claims is incorrect if the tool one uses is faith. As a tool, as an epistemology, as a method of reasoning, as a process for knowing the world, faith cannot adjudicate between competing claims. The ONLY way to figure out which claims about the world are likely true, and which are likely false, is through reason and evidence. There is no other way.

I used to just ignore religion as it has no meaning to me, but then again, as I have stated before I can no longer just look the other way. You have to study the effects of religion, and most major religions to be able to identify the bad emotional impacts subjugation causes. Also on the thought that "why take away faith if it helps people get through the day"...I've never really understood how removing a bad way to reason will make it difficult to get through the day. If anything, it would seem that correcting someone's reasoning would significantly increase their chances of getting through their day.

With reliable forms of reasoning comes the capability of crafting conditions that enable people to navigate life's obstacles. By using a more reliable form of reasoning, people are more capable of bringing about conditions that enable them to flourish.

To argue that people need faith is to abandon hope, and to condescend and accuse the faithful of being incapable of understanding the importance of reason and rationality. There are better and worse ways to come to terms with death, to find strength during times of personal crisis, to make meaning and purpose in our lives, to interpret our sense of awe and wonder, and to contribute to human well-being...and the faithful are completely capable of understanding and achieving this..if they would only try.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-10-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 06:05 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Oh yeah, it is verified to me daily. Of course this can't be proven. Imagine that.

Yeah, you keep saying things like that. The point is that nobody, including you, can determine whether your claims are accurate or delusional until you can provide evidence to back them up. Until then your claims must be dismissed as vacuous.

(14-10-2015 06:08 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Deconversion? Why would you want to remove someone from Faith?

Because faith is an unreliable epistemology. You can accept anything at all on faith, including contradictory claims. The less faith we have the better off we will all be.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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14-10-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 06:38 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 06:05 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Oh yeah, it is verified to me daily. Of course this can't be proven. Imagine that.

Yeah, you keep saying things like that. The point is that nobody, including you, can determine whether your claims are accurate or delusional until you can provide evidence to back them up. Until then your claims must be dismissed as vacuous.

(14-10-2015 06:08 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Deconversion? Why would you want to remove someone from Faith?

Because faith is an unreliable epistemology. You can accept anything at all on faith, including contradictory claims. The less faith we have the better off we will all be.
No you cannot accept contradictory claims because of faith. Prove to me doesn't have to be proof to you. In a courthouse If you where robbed at gunpoint but there where no witnesses then the perpetrator would get off. Does that mean they didn't rob you. Where is your proof? Oh you where there and it happened to you. Undeniable to you for sure. In court, not so much.
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14-10-2015, 07:14 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 06:29 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Anjele,

Nothing is in it for me directly. It is the betterment of civilization that I am after. It is for the generations that are on their way, and is what I am supposed to do. If you found a way to bring about world peace and advancement of peaceful society and the end of poverty and needless pain wouldn't you try?

I'm sure many were in Faith of some sort. I have found one or two individuals that really know and follow the teachings of God through personal connection. The fact is that there is a new testament coming. Prior to the realization of this testament pretty much all Christians and people of other religions have the wrong idea. Some know. But compared to the religious masses, they don't equate to a very large percentage at all.

All are completely capable. Just not necessarily through the practices that they where taught. Kinda like my spelling. I can communicate, but I would do it better if I was taught right, or applied myself more.

That is your worldview. Nowhere does that mean it's the right thing for everyone.

You are trying to push your beliefs on others. That's pretty sanctimonious on your part. Who is to say you are correct? You? Your feelings?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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14-10-2015, 07:26 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 06:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence.

What if evidence is the delusion? Bechased

#sigh
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14-10-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 07:14 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 06:29 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Anjele,

Nothing is in it for me directly. It is the betterment of civilization that I am after. It is for the generations that are on their way, and is what I am supposed to do. If you found a way to bring about world peace and advancement of peaceful society and the end of poverty and needless pain wouldn't you try?

I'm sure many were in Faith of some sort. I have found one or two individuals that really know and follow the teachings of God through personal connection. The fact is that there is a new testament coming. Prior to the realization of this testament pretty much all Christians and people of other religions have the wrong idea. Some know. But compared to the religious masses, they don't equate to a very large percentage at all.

All are completely capable. Just not necessarily through the practices that they where taught. Kinda like my spelling. I can communicate, but I would do it better if I was taught right, or applied myself more.

That is your worldview. Nowhere does that mean it's the right thing for everyone.

You are trying to push your beliefs on others. That's pretty sanctimonious on your part. Who is to say you are correct? You? Your feelings?
I know and time will tell after I am gone. I'm not making a show of anything. Not superior in any way a assure you. If someone didn't ask I wouldn't have said it.
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14-10-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 07:14 PM)Anjele Wrote:  That is your worldview. Nowhere does that mean it's the right thing for everyone.

You are trying to push your beliefs on others. That's pretty sanctimonious on your part. Who is to say you are correct? You? Your feelings?
I know and time will tell after I am gone. I'm not making a show of anything. Not superior in any way a assure you. If someone didn't ask I wouldn't have said it.

Baloney. If you didn't think your views were superior, you wouldn't be trying to inflict them.

Please show us how we can benefit from your world view, by demonstrating how your views have helped you personally. In real terms: how have your beliefs improved your health, financial standing, and/or social position? What great art or literature have your beliefs help you create? How have your beliefs saved or improved the lives of people you know? (actual references that people could verify preferred) How have your beliefs made your local universe a better place? Any greener grass, animals you have aged, etc.? Anything SPECIFIC and VERIFIABLE would be appreciated and evaluated.
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14-10-2015, 07:40 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I know and time will tell after I am gone.

So you realize and appreciate your impermanence and your inevitable descent into the abyss. Good on you. Thumbsup

#sigh
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14-10-2015, 07:52 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
Julep,

Physical ailment:
Improved vision literally, improved lung function. Ability to go beyond physical limits of tiredom and hunger.
Financial and social standings are irelevent to me as they are wants of the physical and made up by man as signs of success.

I have actually written some pretty good stuff and have a talent for drawing which my beliefs have inspired. My views have helped a good bit of people. Two come to mind as definative but many have come to me personally with thanks and apreciation for the light I had shown pertaining to their lives. Not me though.

All grass has been greener. All scenary more spectacular.
Animals can sense the calm and compassion that come off of me and act accordingly. Even insects act differently. I can literally be covered in ants and not be bit for the most part. Can handle wasps in there territory without being stung. One dog did try to bite me but really just pinched me. It was just protecting the elderly woman and child that were with it though. How would I go about verifying any of that?
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14-10-2015, 08:07 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(14-10-2015 07:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I know and time will tell after I am gone.

So you realize and appreciate your impermanence and your inevitable descent into the abyss. Good on you. Thumbsup
As of now, perhaps. I am changing though. I have little doubt that I will be fit for heaven upon death. Not that that means I will have any recollection of this life or my actions. I just don't know that part.
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