Theists, what brings you to TTA?
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15-10-2015, 11:36 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 10:53 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... True Faith in the merciful God, the creator of all things shields from everything, even doubts.

What is it you think I'm scared of?

You're obviously afraid of something, else "shields from everything" wouldn't be important to you - and since "shields from everything" is the first and only benefit you identify "True Faith" as giving you, it confirms that whatever fears you allay with it are deep and troubling. Doubt appears to be one of them.

Now, shield from doubt matters only to those who are worried that what they believe has no legitimacy. Those whose honest interest is acquiring as deep a knowledge about something as possible will ALWAYS welcome doubts; it is doubt that opens deeper avenues of learning. Fear of doubt arrests learning - and accomplishes the opposite of what the doubt-fearer is trying to do: sustain a pretense of being right - because in blocking further learning it blocks any chance of ever getting close to being right.
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15-10-2015, 11:45 PM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 11:04 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 10:10 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Which concept? The concept that excluding people who disagree with you or represent a point against you which would normally be defined as a part of your set based on arbitrary redefinitions so as to 'invalidate' responses based on them, or the concept that real Scotsmen wear kilts, and any without aren't really Scots?
Ok, think I get it, and it doesn't relate because Faith is knowing something. And no one is leaving anyone out. One can stop believing in the tooth fairy. One can also stop believing in God if they find a reason to or lack of a reason not to. Faith and belief aren't the same. That's all their is to it. Belief can lead to Faith but Faith isn't going to diminish in the lack of physical evidence because it isn't a physical thing. It's an understanding. A way of being.

You know people can KNOW things and later be convinced because of other reasons to not know that anymore. Knowledge isn't some source that is eternal that you can never forget once known... so Faith isn't merely knowledge if there is some "real" faith to your view of it.

I used to know the quadratic formula, I don't know it anymore. It's not accurate to say I never knew the quadratic formula, I did. It just hasn't been relevant to me in a dozen years so the information is not grasped in my mind.

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16-10-2015, 12:24 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
Aliza,

I wasn't drawing parallels. Salvation and, as a result, my Faith has brought a level of calm and inner peace(at times) that is reflected in my interactions with other living things(not humans).

I can't say that I am familiar with the scripture you speak of. What is it? I would also like to state that you may have read too far into a couple of things.

I'm still missing your point. First I thought you were gonna go off about Christ. Then it looked like you were saying fundamintalists counter productive to society.

I guess I'll just through som stuff out and let you sort through it. So let's see.

Just because I have a conscience and do my best to act according to what I know is right doesn't mean I'm warm and fuzzy all the time. I used to be a very negative person to say the least. The things I have come to know have taken most of that hate and anger and resentment, but I still hate myself at times. I still catch myself wishing and wanting to hurt others to a very mild extent. What makes you think that someone with a close connection to the right path, under God would be less productive for civilization? Peace and unity have limitless ramifications. Everything I say is backed by scripture including the Torah.

Earlier you said Jews sin. That must suck seeing as how Moses explained everything to them exactly as he heard it. Pretty sure the Jew was given the responsability of guiding the test of man in the knowledge of God. To the Jewish, or at least the ones I've read of, they have every law. To break these laws is sin. They aren't supposed to sin though, especially since there were chosen and all. But they go above and beyond in the sin department. Now, to sin is to die. Isn't that the Jewish belief; no transgressions? I may be wrong about that. Anyway, Jewish are to make sacrifices to God as atonement for their sins or idol worship, I think. Grain, burnt, insence.

Anyway, long story short; you cannot sacrifice something else for transgressions that you made against God. Sacrifice is to be of self for sin. Either we can sacrifice sin and walk the narrow path under God, or we can be burned up with sin as chaf upon the harvest.
Do you get what I'm saying? It is written that existence will be without sin, as in God is going to put an end to it for eternity. To be in sin is fatal. To sacrifice self from sin is to be reborn under Gods path as his children. Everyone always has some negative thing to say about Christ. Well it is the way to God. You where talking about idolotry. Still confused and falling asleep literally. Will try to talk tomorrow.
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16-10-2015, 12:32 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 11:36 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 10:53 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... True Faith in the merciful God, the creator of all things shields from everything, even doubts.

What is it you think I'm scared of?

You're obviously afraid of something, else "shields from everything" wouldn't be important to you - and since "shields from everything" is the first and only benefit you identify "True Faith" as giving you, it confirms that whatever fears you allay with it are deep and troubling. Doubt appears to be one of them.

Now, shield from doubt matters only to those who are worried that what they believe has no legitimacy. Those whose honest interest is acquiring as deep a knowledge about something as possible will ALWAYS welcome doubts; it is doubt that opens deeper avenues of learning. Fear of doubt arrests learning - and accomplishes the opposite of what the doubt-fearer is trying to do: sustain a pretense of being right - because in blocking further learning it blocks any chance of ever getting close to being right.
What!!!???

Ok. I didn't fear much before my Faith. I don't fear anything with it. Explain how someone doesn't accept doubt.

Let's say that you come across this ideology that works completely within science and also established the possibility of faith and God as factual things. Would you doubt it's plausibility? You just said doubt is a tool to learn so learn then. Next time you could think before you speak rashly. Up to you though.
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16-10-2015, 12:39 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 11:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:04 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Ok, think I get it, and it doesn't relate because Faith is knowing something. And no one is leaving anyone out. One can stop believing in the tooth fairy. One can also stop believing in God if they find a reason to or lack of a reason not to. Faith and belief aren't the same. That's all their is to it. Belief can lead to Faith but Faith isn't going to diminish in the lack of physical evidence because it isn't a physical thing. It's an understanding. A way of being.

You know people can KNOW things and later be convinced because of other reasons to not know that anymore. Knowledge isn't some source that is eternal that you can never forget once known... so Faith isn't merely knowledge if there is some "real" faith to your view of it.

I used to know the quadratic formula, I don't know it anymore. It's not accurate to say I never knew the quadratic formula, I did. It just hasn't been relevant to me in a dozen years so the information is not grasped in my mind.
Yeah that doesn't really apply then, does it. Th creator of all existence that we partake of daily, and our direction under God seems pretty relevant and would to any other faithful individual. This would make it pretty hard to forget. Again people who claim to have once been faithful as opposed to believers are just lying to themselves. Perhaps we could compare it to things you use often like swimming, biking, walking. We don't really forget these too much. It would be the same with Faith as it wouldn't be a haphazard once a week type thing.
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16-10-2015, 01:08 AM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2015 01:14 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(16-10-2015 12:39 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You know people can KNOW things and later be convinced because of other reasons to not know that anymore. Knowledge isn't some source that is eternal that you can never forget once known... so Faith isn't merely knowledge if there is some "real" faith to your view of it.

I used to know the quadratic formula, I don't know it anymore. It's not accurate to say I never knew the quadratic formula, I did. It just hasn't been relevant to me in a dozen years so the information is not grasped in my mind.
Yeah that doesn't really apply then, does it. Th creator of all existence that we partake of daily, and our direction under God seems pretty relevant and would to any other faithful individual. This would make it pretty hard to forget. Again people who claim to have once been faithful as opposed to believers are just lying to themselves. Perhaps we could compare it to things you use often like swimming, biking, walking. We don't really forget these too much. It would be the same with Faith as it wouldn't be a haphazard once a week type thing.

Forgetting is only one way to lose knowledge. You can simply be convinced of "wrong" knowledge. You could view that as the situation, that all those lies of science not needing God convinced them to believe "wrong" knowledge leaving behind what they knew is the fault. You even have said things like, "misconception and that false doctrine causes confusion and weak Faith." So how is REAL faith different from any knowledge ability where false doctrine and confusion could of caused someone who had Faith to begin thinking differently?

You actually do forget how to do those things. You are using really weak logic, like if an aphorism said it, it must be true. Muscle memory can be dilapidated so you do forget how to swim, walk, bike, etc. when the situation that alters your state can hit you. Hell even a famous hockey player in June got hit in the head with a puck and had to relearn how to talk because of the brain damage. If the factors line up, it's quite possible to lose any type of knowledge. Brains are susceptible to lots of failures.

If all you mean by Faith is Knowledge. Your whole functional view here is psychologically inaccurate.

(16-10-2015 12:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Let's say that you come across this ideology that works completely within science and also established the possibility of faith and God as factual things. Would you doubt it's plausibility? You just said doubt is a tool to learn so learn then. Next time you could think before you speak rashly. Up to you though.

Then the way you keep using faith like here, it doesn't even make sense if it's "knowledge." So you're just dishonest to continue spouting it as knowledge, why would you even use faith.

Why not say, "the established possibility of Knowledge and God are factual things" if Faith is Knowledge?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-10-2015, 01:29 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(16-10-2015 01:08 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why not say, "the established possibility of Knowledge and God are factual things" if Faith is Knowledge?

Because using the real definition for "faith", which is "positive belief held without, or against, evidence" is indistinguishable from "gullibility".

To have faith, to believe in things without evidence, is to be gullible.

People of faith prey upon, and are preyed upon, much like snake oil salesmen, telemarketers, used car salesmen, TV psychics, and the poor saps who pay them. A lie is easier to swallow when god/Jesus is used to sell it to you, especially when those lies are certainty and comfort.

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16-10-2015, 05:10 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 08:14 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 10:00 AM)julep Wrote:  You have just committed the No true Scotsman fallacy. When I had faith, I had faith.

Many of your posts assert that those who don't have faith are following evil, selfish, etc. You very much come off as someone who thinks that you have the answers and that others should believe what you do. If that's not what you intend, you should revise your approach.
Real Faith is unwavering. If you ever had it then you wouldn't have lost it.

No True Scotsman double down!

I think I prefer having the ability to understand ideas and abandon fallacies as I come to find them in my thinking.
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16-10-2015, 05:37 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
(15-10-2015 09:44 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 08:36 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Yes, and no true Scotsman would ever be caught without a kilt.
Yeah if heard that a few times but I haven't grasped the concept.

Calling faith true does not make it so.

(15-10-2015 10:02 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Shame is a big part of faith.

(15-10-2015 10:53 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  True Faith in the merciful God, the creator of all things shields from everything, even doubts.

It only serves to confuse the self and others.

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16-10-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Theists, what brings you to TTA?
Free thought,

I explained how one can't loose Faith but can loose belief. As far as someone who "was" truly faithful, but then lost it due to some happening in there life; couldn't happen. We are set in trials daily. Indeed they test our faith or our worth under God. If one claims some calamity took there Faith away then I assert that they failed God's test at that time. It's pretty simple.

I would love for some ustabe faithful to arguee this point with me. I welcome it with opened arms. Let me explain something to you; the worst calamity and atrosities, and afflictions can fall upon me from now until my death, whenever that may be, and my Faith will not falter. That's what true Faith is. One can have hope and one can have belief. Both of those lead to Faith. They are in no way synonimous though.

Your buddy said something along the lines of" they were all fakers"
So again why would someone fake something to death?
They wouldn't, just like someone truly faithful under God wouldn't be so weak as to abandon that Faith in the face of adversity.

I look forward to meeting whoever and whatever God appoints me to meet in this life and the next. The whole abundance of faith, lack of fear thing is pretty cool.
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