Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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06-03-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 11:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If there was a value I seek to instill in my children it's compassion for others.

Me too. Difference is I don't need no God for that. Dude just gets in the way and muddies what are otherwise clear waters.

#sigh
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06-03-2016, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 03:56 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(24-02-2016 03:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Any God the believes that I’m a sinner because I worship Christ, is not a God I believe in.

Dafuq dude, it's your God that declares you are a sinner regardless of who you worship, not me. I am sinless.

#sigh
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06-03-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 01:19 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I’ve made the statement in my last post that Judaism does have a place for intentions, but intentions are between man and B-b. –and that good intentions without action do not feed hungry people.

I fixed it for you. Big Grin

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06-03-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 03:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would say while your actions were beneficial to the women in front of you, in terms or morality, it's a neutral act. Because it wasn't motivated by moral values at all, any more so than when stores decide to offer self-check out lanes to speed up transactions.

Goddam dude, you have a seriously twisted and fucked up sense of morality. The intent is incidental to the act. The act is what matters. Not the intent. Your sense of morality is why I became amoral decades ago.

I disagree.

Fist of all, I don't believe that morality is real, but if it were I would guess that intentions would be the only thing that matters.

Think of a situation where a man rescues a drowning child (a moral act by most people's standards), but the child then grows up to be a serial killer who kills dozens of innocents. Would saving the child then become immoral since it resulted in the murder of dozens?
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06-03-2016, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 04:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 03:49 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 03:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Goddam dude, you have a seriously twisted and fucked up sense of morality. The intent is incidental to the act. The act is what matters. Not the intent. Your sense of morality is why I became amoral decades ago.

I disagree.

Fist of all, I don't believe that morality is real, but if it were I would guess that intentions would be the only thing that matters.

Granted. If you were to stipulate to the artificial construct of morality then intent matters. If you don't, like me, it doesn't. Ethics matter. Morality is bullshit.

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06-03-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?
In the evangelical communities I grew up in and was exposed to, correct belief was definitely more important than correct action. How could it be otherwise, when "all our righteousness (right actions) are as filthy rags" to god? Atheists such as I now am, can do virtuous things but it doesn't count if it doesn't arise from the influence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person. Otherwise it is empty works, and deceptive.

We were taught that we were going to hell unless we believed in Christ's atonement. The only real sin was the sin of unbelief.

Unsurprisingly, evangelicals tended to excuse their own harmful acts as forgiven ("covered in the blood of Jesus"). Or to put it more flippantly, PBPGINFWMY (Please Be Patient, God Is Not Finished With Me Yet). If god forgives me, who are you not to? And on the other hand, someone outside the flock is to be looked on with suspicion, no matter how much integrity and empathy they consistently demonstrate, because the apparent goodness has to be false given the absence of "correct" belief.
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06-03-2016, 06:44 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 06:49 PM by Leo.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
Christianity is a crazy religion and a death cult. Christians literally worship some guy executed as a human sacrifice. The human sacrifice is the most important thing to this crazy religion. Like Paul says without the crucifixion and "resurrection " there isn't Christianity.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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06-03-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 06:21 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?
In the evangelical communities I grew up in and was exposed to, correct belief was definitely more important than correct action. How could it be otherwise, when "all our righteousness (right actions) are as filthy rags" to god? Atheists such as I now am, can do virtuous things but it doesn't count if it doesn't arise from the influence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person. Otherwise it is empty works, and deceptive.

We were taught that we were going to hell unless we believed in Christ's atonement. The only real sin was the sin of unbelief.

Unsurprisingly, evangelicals tended to excuse their own harmful acts as forgiven ("covered in the blood of Jesus"). Or to put it more flippantly, PBPGINFWMY (Please Be Patient, God Is Not Finished With Me Yet). If god forgives me, who are you not to? And on the other hand, someone outside the flock is to be looked on with suspicion, no matter how much integrity and empathy they consistently demonstrate, because the apparent goodness has to be false given the absence of "correct" belief.

My experience with True Christianity™ is limited, and mostly from the position of an outsider looking in. I don't know the NT backwards and forwards, so sometimes when I hear quotes like that, I'm hearing them for the first time. That one knocked me for a bit of a loop there.

That's.... messed up.

But it does explain the framework for Tomasia's thinking on this matter.
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06-03-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 03:49 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Fist of all, I don't believe that morality is real, but if it were I would guess that intentions would be the only thing that matters.
"the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

It is my perception that people with unwavering ambitions to make the world fit their idealism of what is Good, end up creating a nightmare for those that do not share in those ideals. This person justifies many atrocities along the path towards their utopian society.

Rather than praising Good intentions, we would be better off to shun them, rather than defining Ideal we would be better off accepting that there is no Ideal. If we accept that we have control of only ourselves, we can learn to admire and adore the diversity of others.

If we focus on ourselves we can control our own propensity towards experiencing frustration and anger rather than to blame others for our own emotions, and seek violent retribution upon them.

Keep in mind that we co-exist within an environment of limited resource. We must compete, no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be. We live amongst others that must compete against ourselves, we must be wary, shrewd, cunning, in this way we must keep our eye's open, we must navigate through society rather than seek to control society to suit our belief in ideals.

Controlling society is a dead end, it is a goal which justifies force and violence (in order to control), let go of your ideals, accept that others are different to yourself, have different moral beliefs, different views of what is ideal. We don't need to fight to seek to control society, all we need is to find a path to navigate ourselves through society. Conflict is unavoidable, but that doesn't mean we ought to seek it out by putting ourselves on a path of righteousness and "justified" violence in order to enforce our vision of utopia on others.
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06-03-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Keep in mind that we co-exist within an environment of limited resource. We must compete, no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be. We live amongst others that must compete against ourselves, we must be wary, shrewd, cunning, in this way we must keep our eye's open, we must navigate through society rather than seek to control society to suit our belief in ideals.

That's such a good point!

If you're taking the position that intent is more important than action, then why do we live in a physical world where action must be taken in order to survive? The foundation of our world and our survival in it depends on our actions.
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