Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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07-03-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Ok, this quote means absolutely nothing to me. I could just as easily say that "the road to heaven is paved with good intentions" and it would have just as much truth and meaning.

If someone is trying to help me but accidentally steps on my toe, I do not become angry at that person, but rather, I am grateful to them for trying to help me. If some intends to step on my toe, on the other hand, I do become angry and will probably seek some kind of retribution or retaliation.

Do you think that a person who is guilty of involuntary manslaughter should be treated the same as a person who murdered someone on purpose?

Intentions matter, for me anyways.

(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is my perception that people with unwavering ambitions to make the world fit their idealism of what is Good, end up creating a nightmare for those that do not share in those ideals. This person justifies many atrocities along the path towards their utopian society.

The problem is that you are just as guilty as everyone else on this. A society in which people leave others to their own devices and don't interfere is "your" version of utopian society.

(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Rather than praising Good intentions, we would be better off to shun them, rather than defining Ideal we would be better off accepting that there is no Ideal. If we accept that we have control of only ourselves, we can learn to admire and adore the diversity of others.

This is absolutely ridiculous. If someone tries to help me in a time of desperation, I should shun them? Huh

Do you "adore and admire" the diversity of muslim communities that make women second-class citizens?

(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If we focus on ourselves we can control our own propensity towards experiencing frustration and anger rather than to blame others for our own emotions, and seek violent retribution upon them.

If someone came and raped and killed your family, would you not seek violent retribution upon them?

(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Keep in mind that we co-exist within an environment of limited resource. We must compete, no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be. We live amongst others that must compete against ourselves, we must be wary, shrewd, cunning, in this way we must keep our eye's open, we must navigate through society rather than seek to control society to suit our belief in ideals.

"we must navigate through society rather than seek to control society to suit our belief in ideals."

This is simply not true. We can seek to control society or not. There is literally nothing that we "must" do except die (and pay taxes as the old joke goes).

(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Controlling society is a dead end, it is a goal which justifies force and violence (in order to control), let go of your ideals, accept that others are different to yourself, have different moral beliefs, different views of what is ideal. We don't need to fight to seek to control society, all we need is to find a path to navigate ourselves through society. Conflict is unavoidable, but that doesn't mean we ought to seek it out by putting ourselves on a path of righteousness and "justified" violence in order to enforce our vision of utopia on others.

Controlling society is a dead end? Like, we should just get rid of all laws and live in anarchy? Is that your preference?

You have a vision of utopia as much as everyone else, even if that means anarchy. One could define utopia as a society which is desired. Based on what you say, it appears to me that your "utopia" is anarchy.
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07-03-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is my perception that people with unwavering ambitions to make the world fit their idealism of what is Good, end up creating a nightmare for those that do not share in those ideals. This person justifies many atrocities along the path towards their utopian society.

The problem is that you are just as guilty as everyone else on this. A society in which people leave others to their own devices and don't interfere is "your" version of utopian society.
I don't want to implement any laws for the sake of having a moral society. I don't know what is right or wrong. I'm not supporting the police in use of violence against prostitutes trying to make a living. I'm not supporting the police in use of violence against gays that want to celebrate their love for each other. I'm not supporting police in use of violence against pregnant woman that want an abortion.
I'm not seeking to force anyone to live the life I want to live.
I live my own life how I see fit. I only pry into the behaviour of others if their behaviour strongly impacts my own life, i.e. if they attempt to harm my family. I'm not concerned with stopping them doing something that is against my "ideals" for the sake of it. e.g. like a Christian trying to stop gays from getting married.


(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Rather than praising Good intentions, we would be better off to shun them, rather than defining Ideal we would be better off accepting that there is no Ideal. If we accept that we have control of only ourselves, we can learn to admire and adore the diversity of others.

This is absolutely ridiculous. If someone tries to help me in a time of desperation, I should shun them? Huh
My intent on this phrase is with regards to a person trying to forcibly create utopia. Like countries which have moral police that are forcibly locking people up because of actions that don't matter, like locking up a woman for exposing her hair, or face, or breasts. I understand that the intend behind the law is believed to be "Good", but I shun such things. Don't implement any laws for the sake of "Good". Implement laws only if not having them causes disfunction and unnecessary danger in society.


(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Do you "adore and admire" the diversity of muslim communities that make women second-class citizens?
I don't support my country in making a war with muslim countries on this matter. The "Good" intentions here might justify a war. "We are doing it to rid the world of evil" Bullshit!

(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 10:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If we focus on ourselves we can control our own propensity towards experiencing frustration and anger rather than to blame others for our own emotions, and seek violent retribution upon them.

If someone came and raped and killed your family, would you not seek violent retribution upon them?
I probably would be in an emotional state such that I would want to personally hurt them. But then I support laws against vigilante justice.

(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  "we must navigate through society rather than seek to control society to suit our belief in ideals."

This is simply not true. We can seek to control society or not. There is literally nothing that we "must" do except die (and pay taxes as the old joke goes).
True, but you are taking my statement too literally. If you choose not to navigate through society then perhaps you could disappear into the forest and live outside of society.


(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Controlling society is a dead end? Like, we should just get rid of all laws and live in anarchy? Is that your preference?
No, not my stance at all. There are some laws we need. Not for the sake of control, but for the sake of safety. Some laws we have because we must, the laws we have merely for control, we don't need.




(07-03-2016 05:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You have a vision of utopia as much as everyone else
I'm not seeking laws to enforce utopia on anyone, I'm not seeking to give police the obligation to use force to ensure people fit that utopian mold.

I'm seeking to mind my own business and let others choose their own path.
It's not what i would call a utopian society.
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15-01-2017, 09:17 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
I realise I'm a bit late..

But action and belief are interlinked

Your belief influences your action
Action reflects your belief

But personally. Action is more important IMHO

Hey. P, your beliefs show nothing but your actions.. they make people think.. "Hey, he's a good guy" or "he's a real cunt" - Cypher's Dad

Oh no. He's here - God
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15-01-2017, 09:45 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-01-2017 09:17 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I realise I'm a bit late..

But action and belief are interlinked

Your belief influences your action
Action reflects your belief

But personally. Action is more important IMHO

Hey. P, your beliefs show nothing but your actions.. they make people think.. "Hey, he's a good guy" or "he's a real cunt" - Cypher's Dad
It is true that one is subject to operant conditioning and acculturation, especially as a child, and these factors are the primary determinant of what religion you adhere to.

It is fair enough to recognize this, but I think it goes to far to tell ourselves that we are helpless victims of these things. You can correct belief AND action anytime you choose to. True, it's harder -- often FAR harder -- to make a change later in life, particularly when your environment isn't respectful of your personal freedom of thought.

As to which is more important, I think it's a misguided question. Actions are informed by belief, so belief comes first. The question of not acting fully in accordance with your beliefs for whatever reason (e.g., fear of reprisals, doubts about the beliefs themselves) still doesn't make actions "more important" than beliefs. They are mutually influencing and reinforcing and it is difficult to be content or at peace when they are out of sync. That is all.
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17-01-2017, 10:53 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
Jesus' brother told Christians the answer to this.

So, yeah.

Also, Jesus himself laid it out pretty plainly with the parable of the RYL.

Christians that believe differently are morons.

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18-01-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(17-01-2017 10:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Jesus' brother told Christians the answer to this.

So, yeah.

Also, Jesus himself laid it out pretty plainly with the parable of the RYL.

Christians that believe differently are morons.
That second one is very dangerous, in my view it is very poor advice
Quote:Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven"
If we all did this then we would fail as a society, we would have no companies, many people would ultimately end up starving to death.

In my view, save for your future, work hard and try to earn and save money, save for your family, for education and qualifications, if you are interested in starting up a business and creating wealth for yourself and jobs for others then do so. There is no shame in being successful.

I guess the Christian bible was created to appeal to the poor.
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19-01-2017, 12:12 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-01-2017 02:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That second one is very dangerous, in my view it is very poor advice
Quote:Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven"
If we all did this then we would fail as a society, we would have no companies, many people would ultimately end up starving to death.

Doesn't change that if you're a true blue, dyed in the wool Christian, that's what JC told ya to do. Most people are too sensible to follow that particular advice though.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-01-2017, 01:15 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(17-01-2017 10:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Jesus' brother told Christians the answer to this.

So, yeah.

Also, Jesus himself laid it out pretty plainly with the parable of the RYL.

Christians that believe differently are morons.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

nah nah

Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-01-2017, 03:32 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(19-01-2017 01:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 10:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Jesus' brother told Christians the answer to this.

So, yeah.

Also, Jesus himself laid it out pretty plainly with the parable of the RYL.

Christians that believe differently are morons.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

nah nah

Tongue
Yeah but, you're not supposed to read that one literally. Don't you know anything Bucky? Some of what the bible says, you are supposed to take it at face value and some other things, well, you're supposed to do the opposite.
It would be a pretty fucked up world if people actually did all of what the bible says. Only fools read the bible as it is written. You need to interprete it.
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19-01-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
That's talking about salvation, Bucky. The last part of the chapter is about salvation through faith; not works, and who can receive salvation.

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