Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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09-02-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 03:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  She basically said that I’d be better off as a strung-out heroin addict with Jesus, rather than a good person without Jesus.

I knew this would be her line of thinking in concept, but I didn’t expect that when put to the test –had she the opportunity to choose my fate for me- that she’d choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...
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09-02-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 03:36 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In Christianity belief is more important than action because fundamentalist Christians (those who would care to convert you) perceive themselves as flawed, ugly and sinful. They have learned to perceive their own happiness as poison. The only thing that matters is that you believe in Jesus and that HE and he alone can save you from yourself. Why do you think pride is the worst sin imaginable in Christian world? It's the very first step to feel happiness without their god. Your friend would choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success because she believe that your happiness and success is just as bad if not worst then heroin. It gives you pride and confidence and this is a deadly sin. Remember that Christianity is at its core a death cult that was created to give hope to those who had no happiness and success in their life. It's truly the opium of the people.

You're absolutely correct. Their brains are wired differently. I was taught to go after success and strive to be an amazing person. How do you convey that to someone who's bogged down with "original sin" stuff?

It must be very difficult for people leaving fundamental Christianity to retrain their brains into viewing the world positively and not to constantly feel plagued with guilt.

Close to impossible, actually. The programming is very strong. I was taught that every moment I am not actively focused on God/talking to God opens a dangerous gap between us (me and God), and that if the gap widens it will be all my fault. Working on math homework: gap, unless I'm counting angels. The world's tempting me to pride and worldly knowledge like evolution and such.

I think a lot of Protestants, especially, would answer faith is more important than actions, but part of that has to do with the way Protestants read the Bible and their general claim to be sola scriptura. Any religion that allows a last-minute "sorry," to achieve salvation, as Christianity does--notably showcasing this feature of the religion in the Crucifixion story--puts faith first.

However, often Christians will no-true-scotsman like crazy and will assert that anyone with real faith is showing that through good works, and that the heroin addicts and murderers and adulterers, etc., have all fallen away from god and are no longer Christian.
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09-02-2016, 04:49 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 03:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  She basically said that I’d be better off as a strung-out heroin addict with Jesus, rather than a good person without Jesus.

I knew this would be her line of thinking in concept, but I didn’t expect that when put to the test –had she the opportunity to choose my fate for me- that she’d choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...

How can you tell if a junkie is lying?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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09-02-2016, 04:52 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:49 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...

How can you tell if a junkie is lying?

They're all shaky and shit desperate for the next fix.

#sigh
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09-02-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 04:49 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  How can you tell if a junkie is lying?

They're all shaky and shit desperate for the next fix.

or if he/she is speaking in general. Tongue

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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09-02-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:56 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 04:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  They're all shaky and shit desperate for the next fix.

or if he/she is speaking in general. Tongue

It's not a lie if you believe it.

#sigh
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09-02-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 03:36 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In Christianity belief is more important than action because fundamentalist Christians (those who would care to convert you) perceive themselves as flawed, ugly and sinful. They have learned to perceive their own happiness as poison. The only thing that matters is that you believe in Jesus and that HE and he alone can save you from yourself. Why do you think pride is the worst sin imaginable in Christian world? It's the very first step to feel happiness without their god. Your friend would choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success because she believe that your happiness and success is just as bad if not worst then heroin. It gives you pride and confidence and this is a deadly sin. Remember that Christianity is at its core a death cult that was created to give hope to those who had no happiness and success in their life. It's truly the opium of the people.

You're absolutely correct. Their brains are wired differently. I was taught to go after success and strive to be an amazing person. How do you convey that to someone who's bogged down with "original sin" stuff?

It must be very difficult for people leaving fundamental Christianity to retrain their brains into viewing the world positively and not to constantly feel plagued with guilt.

It's funny that you posted this today, because, just this morning I was feeling incredibly happy and, for the first time ever, I didn't feel guilty about it. I was just soaking it all in, knowing that it couldn't be yanked away by a meddling God who constantly monitored every one of my actions and thoughts. I shit you not. That's how messed up i used to be -- critically evaluating every action or thought I had during the day, wondering if God approved.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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09-02-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 05:17 PM)mgoering Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  You're absolutely correct. Their brains are wired differently. I was taught to go after success and strive to be an amazing person. How do you convey that to someone who's bogged down with "original sin" stuff?

It must be very difficult for people leaving fundamental Christianity to retrain their brains into viewing the world positively and not to constantly feel plagued with guilt.

It's funny that you posted this today, because, just this morning I was feeling incredibly happy and, for the first time ever, I didn't feel guilty about it. I was just soaking it all in, knowing that it couldn't be yanked away by a meddling God who constantly monitored every one of my actions and thoughts. I shit you not. That's how messed up i used to be -- critically evaluating every action or thought I had during the day, wondering if God approved.

Hug

I can't imagine feeling like that. Sad

I'm so happy I never believed. I'd like to think I'd have the strength of will and critical thinking to get out of that kind of control but until you've lived it I guess you don't know.

[Image: dnw9krH.jpg?4]
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09-02-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:49 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...

How can you tell if a junkie is lying?

They're running their mouth.
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10-02-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, theists! I’ve got a question for you all.

Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?

Which one do you believe will have the greatest positive impact on humanity? If you, as a theist, could choose one or the other for all of mankind, which one would you choose? I’m curious to learn what you’d have people believe or by what code of behavior you’d want people to follow. And choosing to have people believe in G-d and follow the 10 commandments as a result in this belief is off the table for this little thought experiment. Belief or action, please.

And for the atheists, my expectation is that you’d favor action over belief, but if you have something else in mind, let’s hear about it.

Both things are important as what we think influence what we do. Greek ideal of kalokagathia could be used to describe best situation.

But it touch religious matters I assume, so in this case thinking matters not - if you don't force taboos on others I couldn't care less what are your thoughts about myriads of made up gods. In such cases action matters.

(09-02-2016 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 03:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  She basically said that I’d be better off as a strung-out heroin addict with Jesus, rather than a good person without Jesus.

I knew this would be her line of thinking in concept, but I didn’t expect that when put to the test –had she the opportunity to choose my fate for me- that she’d choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...

It comes but I think Marx mean something else, considering the full quote:

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

It's more about religion being used to dull very real pain which is result of living in uncaring society than about religious people being junkies who need another hit of god pills I would say.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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