Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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10-02-2016, 01:24 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 01:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's more about religion being used to dull very real pain which is result of living in uncaring society than about religious people being junkies who need another hit of god pills I would say.

That's exactly why comparing religion to an addictive drug is apt. Addicts start down that path in order to dull, or mask, their own very real pain, which is often, I think, a result of an alienation produced by wider society.
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10-02-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 01:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 01:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's more about religion being used to dull very real pain which is result of living in uncaring society than about religious people being junkies who need another hit of god pills I would say.

That's exactly why comparing religion to an addictive drug is apt. Addicts start down that path in order to dull, or mask, their own very real pain, which is often, I think, a result of an alienation produced by wider society.

Comparison itself may be apt but shortened version of the quote for me at least speaks about irrationality of religion, without giving it any benefit, especially in light of negative view of drugs. Judging by the full quote Marx apparently seen something good in such beliefs.

On the side note, religion in his saying appears more like silent and only for a time possible protest about social conditions and it can't be removed without improving said conditions. It's not simple drug used to feel good without good reasons as one can think after seeing short version.

Seeing your words though I can easily agree with your interpretation as it seem somewhat deeper than I often see when people cite Marx.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-02-2016, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2016 06:35 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 03:36 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In Christianity belief is more important than action because fundamentalist Christians (those who would care to convert you) perceive themselves as flawed, ugly and sinful. They have learned to perceive their own happiness as poison. The only thing that matters is that you believe in Jesus and that HE and he alone can save you from yourself. Why do you think pride is the worst sin imaginable in Christian world? It's the very first step to feel happiness without their god. Your friend would choose heroin and Jesus over happiness and success because she believe that your happiness and success is just as bad if not worst then heroin. It gives you pride and confidence and this is a deadly sin. Remember that Christianity is at its core a death cult that was created to give hope to those who had no happiness and success in their life. It's truly the opium of the people.

You're absolutely correct. Their brains are wired differently. I was taught to go after success and strive to be an amazing person. How do you convey that to someone who's bogged down with "original sin" stuff?

It must be very difficult for people leaving fundamental Christianity to retrain their brains into viewing the world positively and not to constantly feel plagued with guilt.

It is if you carry these beliefs into adulthood, but when you set aside the crazy, unjust uber peeping tom god, a great burden is lifted, it's quite liberating to set aside and breathe in the freedom from guilt and the fear of god/hell.

It's a pernicious sword of Damocles hanging over your head, it taints everything you think and everything you do.
That's something Christians can't or won't understand- their religion is no good, it is a horrific, controlling mind fuck. It is absolutely rotten to it's core because of this cultic control it exerts.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-02-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 11:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  Aliza, you underestimate the cunning of the average theist.

Aggressive proselytizing counts as action Dodgy

It always bothered me that Almighty God needs his lackeys to pester me for me to learn His Divine Truth. You'd think that someone who was omnipotent would have some better options at his disposal. What's with the sandbagging, YHWH?

What gets more annoying is when their apologetics contradict themselves. So, they have to go out and be fishers of men, yet they also believe that I know God exists and am just being a nasty liar pants so I can hate God. The fuck is this shit? I need to be badgered to Christ? I know he's real, but I won't accept it until I get irritated enough?
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10-02-2016, 06:40 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 06:29 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 11:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  Aliza, you underestimate the cunning of the average theist.

Aggressive proselytizing counts as action Dodgy

It always bothered me that Almighty God needs his lackeys to pester me for me to learn His Divine Truth. You'd think that someone who was omnipotent would have some better options at his disposal. What's with the sandbagging, YHWH?

What gets more annoying is when their apologetics contradict themselves. So, they have to go out and be fishers of men, yet they also believe that I know God exists and am just being a nasty liar pants so I can hate God. The fuck is this shit? I need to be badgered to Christ? I know he's real, but I won't accept it until I get irritated enough?

The starry eyed wunderkinder who make up this collection of space cadets believe that the power of love will drive Satan out of your sin-blackened heart. Rolleyes They just have to show you *enough* love. Meaning pamphlets and invitations to pray with them obviously. Not the dirty sexy love. If they were offering dirty sexy love I'd definitely consider joining.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-02-2016, 06:47 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 06:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  The starry eyed wunderkinder who make up this collection of space cadets believe that the power of love will drive Satan out of your sin-blackened heart. Rolleyes They just have to show you *enough* love. Meaning pamphlets and invitations to pray with them obviously. Not the dirty sexy love. If they were offering dirty sexy love I'd definitely consider joining.

You know...

...I should suggest hooking up the next time this sort of thing happens. When they inevitably say "something something sin", I'll say "just ask for forgiveness!". When they reply with the predictable "it doesn't work that way", I'll respond "So you're saying God won't forgive you if you sin and ask for forgiveness?". They'll come back with "Yabut-" and I'll cut them off and say "C'mon... it will feel good, and you know he'll forgive you. If he didn't forgive fornicators, 90% of people would be in hell.".
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10-02-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
Why ask theists ? They are confused on the matter.

"Saved by faith alone bla bla bla" ... Ephesians 2:8
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" bla bla bla ... James 2:8

Thus endeth the lesson. Ta ta. *waves hand*
Rev. Buckminster Rolleyes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-02-2016, 07:46 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 06:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 06:29 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It always bothered me that Almighty God needs his lackeys to pester me for me to learn His Divine Truth. You'd think that someone who was omnipotent would have some better options at his disposal. What's with the sandbagging, YHWH?

What gets more annoying is when their apologetics contradict themselves. So, they have to go out and be fishers of men, yet they also believe that I know God exists and am just being a nasty liar pants so I can hate God. The fuck is this shit? I need to be badgered to Christ? I know he's real, but I won't accept it until I get irritated enough?

The starry eyed wunderkinder who make up this collection of space cadets believe that the power of love will drive Satan out of your sin-blackened heart. Rolleyes They just have to show you *enough* love. Meaning pamphlets and invitations to pray with them obviously. Not the dirty sexy love. If they were offering dirty sexy love I'd definitely consider joining.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Dirty sex might actually sway me. Yes

Mmmmm.... dirty sex.....
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10-02-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 07:46 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 06:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  The starry eyed wunderkinder who make up this collection of space cadets believe that the power of love will drive Satan out of your sin-blackened heart. Rolleyes They just have to show you *enough* love. Meaning pamphlets and invitations to pray with them obviously. Not the dirty sexy love. If they were offering dirty sexy love I'd definitely consider joining.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Dirty sex might actually sway me. Yes

Mmmmm.... dirty sex.....

Belief in action Big Grin

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-02-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(10-02-2016 01:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, theists! I’ve got a question for you all.

Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?

Which one do you believe will have the greatest positive impact on humanity? If you, as a theist, could choose one or the other for all of mankind, which one would you choose? I’m curious to learn what you’d have people believe or by what code of behavior you’d want people to follow. And choosing to have people believe in G-d and follow the 10 commandments as a result in this belief is off the table for this little thought experiment. Belief or action, please.

And for the atheists, my expectation is that you’d favor action over belief, but if you have something else in mind, let’s hear about it.

Both things are important as what we think influence what we do. Greek ideal of kalokagathia could be used to describe best situation.

But it touch religious matters I assume, so in this case thinking matters not - if you don't force taboos on others I couldn't care less what are your thoughts about myriads of made up gods. In such cases action matters.

(09-02-2016 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind ...

It comes but I think Marx mean something else, considering the full quote:

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

It's more about religion being used to dull very real pain which is result of living in uncaring society than about religious people being junkies who need another hit of god pills I would say.

Yet, he says that the god pills are blocking real happiness:
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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