Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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15-02-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, theists! I’ve got a question for you all.

Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?

I find the question problematic for a variety of reasons, such as there does seem to be an important relationship between beliefs and actions. My belief in goodness, underlying my good acts, what it means to be a good husband, son, a constant point of reflection and striving. Without beliefs I'd likely be wandering aimlessly in the dark.

I also find actions less important than character, the intention behind the act, more so than the act itself. A father can provide for his son's material needs, motivated by his desire to preserve his social standing in his community, but not necessarily out of love for his son. Another parent can provide the same thing, but motivated out of love. The latter a better representative of what it means to be a Good parent, more so than the other.

So I think question of where your heart is at, is more important that what deeds have you done. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

I also think that there's a variety of ways to imagine positive contributions, that if we're considering the positive here in terms of relative peace, and stability, tolerance, and respect for privacy, economic prosperity, as a series of political ideals, that's it's easier to overemphasize actions. A prospect that it's more important when we imagine business partners, corporate transactions, rather than friendships.

But if the question of what's Good here is reduced to something more immediate, and intimate, to questions of relationship with both God and and the humanity we interact with daily, that actually occupies our small unique space, it's not really about actions, but that which drives those actions in the first place. A question more of Being, than doing. And I think beliefs are important here. Take individuals like MLK and Malcolm X, what separates them is their ideological commitments, and beliefs. Rev. Kings belief in the power of Love and Non-Violent resistance, as opposed to Malcolm X pragmatic belief, an equal recompense, a tooth for a tooth.

In this sense our beliefs and entirely connected to who are, to our self worth, and conception, and we as change our beliefs mature, grow, and alter along with our revolving self.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(14-02-2016 03:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-02-2016 01:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  



You're good people, Alla.
Thank you!
I am trying to be good people like you. But still there is infinity of room for improvement.




#sigh
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15-02-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 11:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, theists! I’ve got a question for you all.

Which matters more: What people believe, or how they live their lives?

I find the question problematic for a variety of reasons, such as there does seem to be an important relationship between beliefs and actions. My belief in goodness, underlying my good acts, what it means to be a good husband, son, a constant point of reflection and striving. Without beliefs I'd likely be wandering aimlessly in the dark.

I also find actions less important than character, the intention behind the act, more so than the act itself. A father can provide for his son's material needs, motivated by his desire to preserve his social standing in his community, but not necessarily out of love for his son. Another parent can provide the same thing, but motivated out of love. The latter a better representative of what it means to be a Good parent, more so than the other.

So I think question of where your heart is at, is more important that what deeds have you done. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

I also think that there's a variety of ways to imagine positive contributions, that if we're considering the positive here in terms of relative peace, and stability, tolerance, and respect for privacy, economic prosperity, as a series of political ideals, that's it's easier to overemphasize actions. A prospect that it's more important when we imagine business partners, corporate transactions, rather than friendships.

But if the question of what's Good here is reduced to something more immediate, and intimate, to questions of relationship with both God and and the humanity we interact with daily, that actually occupies our small unique space, it's not really about actions, but that which drives those actions in the first place. A question more of Being, than doing. And I think beliefs are important here. Take individuals like MLK and Malcolm X, what separates them is their ideological commitments, and beliefs. Rev. Kings belief in the power of Love and Non-Violent resistance, as opposed to Malcolm X pragmatic belief, an equal recompense, a tooth for a tooth.

In this sense our beliefs and entirely connected to who are, to our self worth, and conception, and we as change our beliefs mature, grow, and alter along with our revolving self.

Short version of your position: Beliefs are more important than actions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2016, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2016 12:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 11:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  Short version of your position: Beliefs are more important than actions.

Equally irrelevant and meaningless gasping for breathe.





Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar










And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust

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15-02-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 11:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 11:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I find the question problematic for a variety of reasons, such as there does seem to be an important relationship between beliefs and actions. My belief in goodness, underlying my good acts, what it means to be a good husband, son, a constant point of reflection and striving. Without beliefs I'd likely be wandering aimlessly in the dark.

I also find actions less important than character, the intention behind the act, more so than the act itself. A father can provide for his son's material needs, motivated by his desire to preserve his social standing in his community, but not necessarily out of love for his son. Another parent can provide the same thing, but motivated out of love. The latter a better representative of what it means to be a Good parent, more so than the other.

So I think question of where your heart is at, is more important that what deeds have you done. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

I also think that there's a variety of ways to imagine positive contributions, that if we're considering the positive here in terms of relative peace, and stability, tolerance, and respect for privacy, economic prosperity, as a series of political ideals, that's it's easier to overemphasize actions. A prospect that it's more important when we imagine business partners, corporate transactions, rather than friendships.

But if the question of what's Good here is reduced to something more immediate, and intimate, to questions of relationship with both God and and the humanity we interact with daily, that actually occupies our small unique space, it's not really about actions, but that which drives those actions in the first place. A question more of Being, than doing. And I think beliefs are important here. Take individuals like MLK and Malcolm X, what separates them is their ideological commitments, and beliefs. Rev. Kings belief in the power of Love and Non-Violent resistance, as opposed to Malcolm X pragmatic belief, an equal recompense, a tooth for a tooth.

In this sense our beliefs and entirely connected to who are, to our self worth, and conception, and we as change our beliefs mature, grow, and alter along with our revolving self.

Short version of your position: Beliefs are more important than actions.
. Yep. Pretty much this^^^. I think intention and actions are way more important than beliefs but there isn't doubt that beliefs influence actions a lot. Stupid and dangerous beliefs can make people to do very negative things.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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15-02-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 11:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  Short version of your position: Beliefs are more important than actions.

Not really, it's more like if someone were to ask is having a car more important than having gas to run it? If the question is in regards to making money (by selling it), than perhaps we could say it's more important.

But if it's a question of getting from point A to point B, then it's not a meaningful question. If our beliefs are what underly our actions, then we can't really ask here if beliefs are more important than the actions. There's as sort of inseparable connection here between the two.

If the question is about what makes us better people, it's not really about actions at all, since the actions stem from being a better person. After all you can just go through the motions.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 01:13 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2016 01:31 PM by Chas.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 11:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  Short version of your position: Beliefs are more important than actions.

Not really, it's more like if someone were to ask is having a car more important than having gas to run it? If the question is in regards to making money (by selling it), than perhaps we could say it's more important.

But if it's a question of getting from point A to point B, then it's not a meaningful question. If our beliefs are what underly our actions, then we can't really ask here if beliefs are more important than the actions. There's as sort of inseparable connection here between the two.

If the question is about what makes us better people, it's not really about actions at all, since the actions stem from being a better person. After all you can just go through the motions.

You contradict yourself in the first post and you just did it again.

My position: One's beliefs are irrelevant without action and one's actions are relevant regardless of belief.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  After all you can just go through the motions.

Yep. Don't mean I don't make friends along the way buddy. Thumbsup

#sigh
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15-02-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
faith without works is dead
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15-02-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:23 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  faith without works is dead

Yep. I believe that I'm the winner of the last person to post wins thread but the only way to actually win is to post( the action).Big Grin

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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