Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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15-02-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  You contradict yourself in the first post and you just did it again.

My position: One's beliefs are irrelevant without action and one's actions are relevant regardless of belief.

And I'd say actions are empty without intention. The why you act, more important than the action itself. A point more clear when we reflect on what it means to be a good father, or friend, as opposed to a law abiding citizen.

And that beliefs are in many cases a part of or representative of those intentions.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 01:52 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 01:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  You contradict yourself in the first post and you just did it again.

My position: One's beliefs are irrelevant without action and one's actions are relevant regardless of belief.

And I'd say actions are empty without intention.

Empty to whom? If I donate $1,000,000 to a charitable cause my beliefs do not matter. The act does.

Quote:The why you act, more important than the action itself.

To whom? Not to those affected by the act.

Quote:A point more clear when we reflect on what it means to be a good father, or friend, as opposed to a law abiding citizen.

There is no discernible difference between a person acting out of love and one acting out of duty. You do not know their beliefs, you can't tell them apart.

Quote:And that beliefs are in many cases a part of or representative of those intentions.

That is not relevant.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  To whom? Not to those affected by the act.

....

To your wife, to your children, to your sisters and brothers, to your friends. In other words to the people that actually matter in a person's life.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 02:24 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  To whom? Not to those affected by the act.

....

To your wife, to your children, to your sisters and brothers, to your friends. In other words to the people that actually matter in a person's life.

Not if the actions are the same. No one can read your mind.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 02:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not if the actions are the same. No one can read your mind.

My wife would tell you otherwise. She can tell you the difference, between my authentic and inauthentic apologies. A seemingly generous act done out of connivery, and one done out of genuine compassion. The mind can be a predicable thing.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
Stupid chemistry exam interfering with my ability to participate in my own thread. Dodgy

Quickly, though. Tomasia, what I'm really trying to do in my OP is drill down to what matters most to you. If you had to pick only one, with the expectation that the other will not work out, which would it be? Naturally, religious people think that if they have belief, their actions will fall in line with their beliefs. -But that's not always the case. Take the example of the heroin addict. There is a physical addiction to heroin that will ruin their lives and may interfere with their ability to act on their faith even if they do feel that they have this wonderful and personal connection to a higher power.
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15-02-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 02:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 02:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not if the actions are the same. No one can read your mind.

My wife would tell you otherwise. She can tell you the difference, between my authentic and inauthentic apologies. A seemingly generous act done out of connivery, and one done out of genuine compassion. The mind can be a predicable thing.

She's likely reading your body language and vocal cues- and she's probably hardly conscious of it.

However, that was not what the OP was asking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
Having racist opinions, and acting of those opinions, is the difference between discrimination and thought crime.

Now Yahweh loves thought crime. I say he can kiss my ass. Drinking Beverage

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15-02-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 02:51 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Having racist opinions, and acting of those opinions, is the difference between discrimination and thought crime.

But not the difference between right and wrong. It's wrong to have racist views, regardless if you act on them or not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(15-02-2016 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Stupid chemistry exam interfering with my ability to participate in my own thread. Dodgy

Quickly, though. Tomasia, what I'm really trying to do in my OP is drill down to what matters most to you. If you had to pick only one, with the expectation that the other will not work out, which would it be?

I just take issue with the dichotomy here. But if I had to chose I'd say that my intentions are more important than my actions. The why i do the things I do, more so than the things I do. If the why can be represented by sets of beliefs, than I'd say beliefs are more important than actions. Though I'd feel more comfortable with the comparison expressed as intentions vs actions, as opposed to beliefs vs. actions.


Quote:Naturally, religious people think that if they have belief, their actions will fall in line with their beliefs. -But that's not always the case. Take the example of the heroin addict. There is a physical addiction to heroin that will ruin their lives and may interfere with their ability to act on their faith even if they do feel that they have this wonderful and personal connection to a higher power.

I don't think it's always the case either. Because there's always a why to why you believe what you do. Why does the heroin addict believe his connection to be wonderful? Does he really find it to be wonderful, or is he lying to himself? If it was wonderful, he likely wouldn't be addicted. Just like rats with a wonderful rat park and other rats to play with, are unlikely to develop an addiction, even after tasting drug laced water, unlike their isolated counterparts.

You can believe for a variety reasons, perhaps you believe something primarily because it's unpopular not to. But the sort of beliefs are reserving myself for are the one's representative of our intentions. Why do I serve food at a homeless shelter, strive to be a good husband, a son, a person. Because I believe I have a duty too, to love my neighbors, to love the poor, to be Good, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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