Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
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18-02-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-02-2016 08:21 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I just take issue with the dichotomy here. But if I had to chose I'd say that my intentions are more important than my actions. The why i do the things I do, more so than the things I do. If the why can be represented by sets of beliefs, than I'd say beliefs are more important than actions. Though I'd feel more comfortable with the comparison expressed as intentions vs actions, as opposed to beliefs vs. actions.

While those views might be consistent with the views of Judaism that's developed in the last two thousands years, I don't think they are particularly faithful to the perspective of OT writers, etc.. who often focus of the importance of changing one's heart, as central to our relationship with God and man.

Quote:In Judaism, we take a different approach; one much closer to what Chas was describing. When I explain this to Christians, I’m usually met with horrified expressions because Christians like to describe themselves as Judeo-Christians and they believe that the root of their value system comes from us.

I don't think many Christians believe their value systems arose from modern judaism lol, but rooted in the perspective of some jews two thousands years ago. In terms of values, as opposed to beliefs about the messiah, whether we're talking about Jesus or Paul, or the rest of the NT writings, they're not some radical departure from the value systems of judaism at the time. The disputes between gentile and jewish christians were not about values.

But also the modern jew, like the modern christian beliefs system has been shaped by a variety of factors, well beyond the ones that took place a hundreds of years ago. One of which is that considerably shaped by our own unique political space, one that doesn't involve the need of tightly knit communities, which are more peripheral than necessary to for us to function and survive. We are more inclined to see each other as political entities, than to consider each other as neighbors. In this our personal lives are not important, just our material contribution to the polis. As far as the material stability of our society is concerned, loving our neighbor is unnecessary.

Quote:In Judaism, intentions (beliefs) and actions are not really related. We humans only have dominion over the actions. We can never truly know another person’s intentions, so we can only judge the actions.

But I'm not speaking about judgement, but as to the sort of person we should desire to be ourselves, the sort of goodness we should be aiming for, that we should desire our children seek after, our communities strive towards. That we should aim not to be the man who gives to charity because it puts his name on a plaque, but driven by the obligation to love others. Which is not a christian value, but just as much a jewish value. It's was Hillel who summarized the entire breath of scripture into that one commandment. And if you say that's not the view of Modern Judaism, then that says more about the state of Judaism today, than the one of long ago.

If modern Judaism sees it's own moral frame as molded by the same clay as secular consequentialism, it's not the christian who has betrayed his roots.

Here we go again -- a Christian dictating to a Jew what the Jewish scriptures "really mean", and what ancient Jews "really believed". How are you in a better position to know that than she is?
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18-02-2016, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2016 09:26 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 08:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote: TOMASIA: The difference between a man who works to get the homeless off of his street,because he can't stand their stench, or to be around them, and a man who is deeply concerned about the affliction of their lives, moved to cloth them and feed them, are worlds apart. And that should be obvious. One is moved by compassion, the other is not. One is what we aspire to when we speak of a Good person, the other is not.

So what? It makes no difference in the effects of their actions.

It makes no difference in the material effect of their actions. Just like the father who pays for his child's education because he can't stand him and wants him out the house, and the father who pays for his child's education out of concern for his wellbeing and future, are both offering the same material benefit--a paid for education. There is no difference here.

I'm sure in this example where the relationship is between two family members you likely see the problem, just not when it's between a man and a homeless person.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-02-2016, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2016 09:41 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Here we go again -- a Christian dictating to a Jew what the Jewish scriptures "really mean", and what ancient Jews "really believed". How are you in a better position to know that than she is?

I'm not, and if I was it would have nothing to do with me being a Christian. Being Christians doesn't exclude me from understanding OT scriptures, or a variety of Jewish perspectives in the ancient world, just like not being Russian doesn't exclude me from understanding Dostoevsky.

I'm confident in my understanding of scripture, and I have no doubt that Aliza is as well. And I'm sure if Aliza disagrees with anything I've said, she'll more than readily make those disagreements known. I can respect her understanding, but I don't find myself needing to be servile to it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-02-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-02-2016 08:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  So what? It makes no difference in the effects of their actions.

It makes no difference in the material effect of their actions. Just like the father who pays for his child's education because he can't stand him and wants him out the house, and the father who pays for his child's education out of concern for his wellbeing and future, are both offering the same material benefit--a paid for education. There is no difference here.

I'm sure in this example where the relationship is between two family members you likely see the problem,

And you would be wrong yet again.

Quote:just not when it's between a man and a homeless person.

There is no problem. You are very confused about the difference between motive and behavior.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-02-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-02-2016 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Here we go again -- a Christian dictating to a Jew what the Jewish scriptures "really mean", and what ancient Jews "really believed". How are you in a better position to know that than she is?

I'm not, and if I was it would have nothing to do with me being a Christian. Being Christians doesn't exclude me from understanding OT scriptures, or a variety of Jewish perspectives in the ancient world, just like not being Russian doesn't exclude me from understanding Dostoevsky.

No, but if an intelligent, literate Russian disagreed with my interpretation of Dostoevsky, I would certainly have to consider what he/she says, and not just dismiss it with "No, I'm sure he really meant this." That would be arrogant of me.
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18-02-2016, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2016 10:05 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, but if an intelligent, literate Russian disagreed with my interpretation of Dostoevsky, I would certainly have to consider what he/she says, and not just dismiss it with "No, I'm sure he really meant this." That would be arrogant of me.

If an intelligent literate Russian disagreed with my interpretation, I would welcome the argument. And if at the end of that argument I realize my interpretation was wrong and his was right, I'd be quite grateful for that.

But I'm confident enough in my understanding of Dostoevsky, to go toe to toe with the best of them. I like Aliza, when she devotes herself to arguing a point, she puts considerable thought and force behind it, and there's always something to learn from her perspectives, and I look forward to that.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-02-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-02-2016 09:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, but if an intelligent, literate Russian disagreed with my interpretation of Dostoevsky, I would certainly have to consider what he/she says, and not just dismiss it with "No, I'm sure he really meant this." That would be arrogant of me.

If an intelligent literate Russian disagreed with my interpretation, I would welcome the argument. And if at the end of that argument I realize my interpretation was wrong and his was right, I'd be quite grateful for that.

But I'm confident enough in my understanding of Dostoevsky, to go toe to toe with the best of them.

You've never been grateful for people pointing out how and why you are wrong before. Laugh out load

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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18-02-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You've never been grateful for people pointing out how and why you are wrong before. Laugh out load

it's good to see you back, I was wondering where you disappeared to.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-02-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 10:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-02-2016 09:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You've never been grateful for people pointing out how and why you are wrong before. Laugh out load

it's good to see you back, I was wondering where you disappeared to.

I figured I would wait until you started being honest and forthcoming before I decided to reengage in the forum.

Then I realized that would never happen so I abandoned that plan.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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18-02-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: Theists, which matters more: action or belief?
(18-02-2016 09:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  While those views might be consistent with the views of Judaism that's developed in the last two thousands years, I don't think they are particularly faithful to the perspective of OT writers, etc.. who often focus of the importance of changing one's heart, as central to our relationship with God and man.

I plan to respond to your other points, but I'm just about to run out the door. Can you please provide me with some examples of what you mean? General references in the Hebrew Bible will be sufficient if looking up exact verses is too tedious.
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