"There are no atheists in foxholes"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-02-2017, 04:47 PM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(23-02-2017 03:52 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 08:28 AM)LadyWallFlower Wrote:  I'm talking to this Christian pastor who is a friend of my parents and sister. I've met him once and I liked him. He started this conversation on FB with me asking about my atheism because he was "curious". Clearly, he has tried to debunk everything I've said- everything, that is, that he hasn't ignored. He had flat out ignored several great points I've had.

But up until today it's been ok and actually entertaining for me. Today he ended his message with: "there are no atheists in foxholes, they always end up praying to a god they don't believe in- why is that?" This was upsetting for me because he clearly knows nothing about how much atheists have to hide their views. He also said something like "you have a choice to go against the grain and believe, or not."

Statements like this indicate to me that the one making them is on the ropes, exhausted and ready to throw in the towel. That means it's time to go for the knockout punch.

I can understand how this would upset you. You've been working, providing him with rational arguments which he ignores and then he goes and pulls something like that straight out of his ass. He simply asserts this. How could he know what all atheists do in a foxhole? He is merely projecting here. He's telling us that when times get tough, he abandons reason and relies on a fantasy of his own imagination to get him through. He's nothing but a fair weather thinker.

Beautifully put!

"Most people are other people.
Their thoughts are someone else's opinions,
their lives a mimicry,
their passions a quotation."
-Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-02-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(23-02-2017 08:36 AM)abaris Wrote:  I happen to own my grandfather's front diary. He wrote it in 1914/15 in the trenches at the Russian front. There's a lot in there on shrapnel rain, the cold and the weather. God however is absent. Not a single word. Later on he tought me dirty soldier songs from that time and spoke a lot about his womanizin before he met my grandma. A divorced christian woman, who wasn't much into church either.

Grandpa was a jew. He served in WWI and was persecuted in WWII. I don't remember him talking about god either or visiting a synagogue even once in his life. One of his favorite dishes was roast pork. That I do remember.

So, obviously the foxholes didn't do much to make him pray.

Wow! What a treasure you have there. My Grandmother died last night. She was a few weeks shy of 96. Her mother kept a diary all during the depression and she had copies made for all of us. I tried to get her to record some stories from her life and especially her childhood on a digital recorder but she was reluctant to do it. It would have been wonderful to have those stories in her own voice. We'll have to pass all of that down to her great grand kids so it won't be lost. How wonderful that you have that written record to pass on.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like true scotsman's post
23-02-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(23-02-2017 05:41 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 08:36 AM)abaris Wrote:  I happen to own my grandfather's front diary. He wrote it in 1914/15 in the trenches at the Russian front. There's a lot in there on shrapnel rain, the cold and the weather. God however is absent. Not a single word. Later on he tought me dirty soldier songs from that time and spoke a lot about his womanizin before he met my grandma. A divorced christian woman, who wasn't much into church either.

Grandpa was a jew. He served in WWI and was persecuted in WWII. I don't remember him talking about god either or visiting a synagogue even once in his life. One of his favorite dishes was roast pork. That I do remember.

So, obviously the foxholes didn't do much to make him pray.

Wow! What a treasure you have there. My Grandmother died last night. She was a few weeks shy of 96. Her mother kept a diary all during the depression and she had copies made for all of us. I tried to get her to record some stories from her life and especially her childhood on a digital recorder but she was reluctant to do it. It would have been wonderful to have those stories in her own voice. We'll have to pass all of that down to her great grand kids so it won't be lost. How wonderful that you have that written record to pass on.

Hug

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-02-2017, 07:38 PM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
If I'm ever in a foxhole fighting for my life, I'm going to pray to dragons.

I know they're just a fantasy I'm latching on to in my moment of desperation... but on the odd chance that they might be real, I could use the extra firepower. Laugh out load

[Image: firepower.gif]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
23-02-2017, 08:08 PM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(23-02-2017 05:41 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 08:36 AM)abaris Wrote:  I happen to own my grandfather's front diary. He wrote it in 1914/15 in the trenches at the Russian front. There's a lot in there on shrapnel rain, the cold and the weather. God however is absent. Not a single word. Later on he tought me dirty soldier songs from that time and spoke a lot about his womanizin before he met my grandma. A divorced christian woman, who wasn't much into church either.

Grandpa was a jew. He served in WWI and was persecuted in WWII. I don't remember him talking about god either or visiting a synagogue even once in his life. One of his favorite dishes was roast pork. That I do remember.

So, obviously the foxholes didn't do much to make him pray.

Wow! What a treasure you have there. My Grandmother died last night. She was a few weeks shy of 96. Her mother kept a diary all during the depression and she had copies made for all of us. I tried to get her to record some stories from her life and especially her childhood on a digital recorder but she was reluctant to do it. It would have been wonderful to have those stories in her own voice. We'll have to pass all of that down to her great grand kids so it won't be lost. How wonderful that you have that written record to pass on.

I am sorry for your loss.

In going through my dad's things after he died I found out so much about my grandfather who came to America from Germany. Along with his immigration papers are all the documents from when he bought my grandmother's family farm...detailed to the point of listing the names of the horses included in the sale. Pretty interesting pieces of my family history though I still don't know why he came to the US...the only one of a large family to do so. I scanned a lot of the papers and pictures and shared them with my siblings and cousins.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-02-2017, 12:43 AM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
I'm very sorry for your loss too Sad

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-02-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(24-02-2017 12:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm very sorry for your loss too Sad

Thank you. She was a remarkable person. I know everyone says that about loved ones who have died but she really was. She had a wonderful sense of life and she had the soul of a 9 year old girl. I mean by that, that she never lost that sense of wonder of a child and that sense of life as an adventure. She was a very successful business woman as well and through all of the hardships she faced in her life she didn't lose her love of life and its possibilities.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
24-02-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(23-02-2017 05:41 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  How wonderful that you have that written record to pass on.

And yet, like so many former soldiers, he refused to talk about any of it. The only thing I remember him saying over and over again - I was but ten when he died - that he never aimed at an enemy.

Today I'm not sure what to make of that, since it was the times of mindless charges. I have a hard time imagining not firing over and over when your own life is at risk. Another veteran however assured me that this happens quite frequently. Soldiers taking the only privilege that's left to them. Not to kill another human being.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes abaris's post
24-02-2017, 10:20 AM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
(24-02-2017 09:05 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 05:41 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  How wonderful that you have that written record to pass on.

And yet, like so many former soldiers, he refused to talk about any of it. The only thing I remember him saying over and over again - I was but ten when he died - that he never aimed at an enemy.

Today I'm not sure what to make of that, since it was the times of mindless charges. I have a hard time imagining not firing over and over when your own life is at risk. Another veteran however assured me that this happens quite frequently. Soldiers taking the only privilege that's left to them. Not to kill another human being.

I can't seem to find the exact numbers... But I've read from multiple sources in the past that up until mid 20th century, only a select few soldiers would shoot directly at an enemy even when that enemy was perceived to be actively trying to kill them. Intentionally or perhaps subconsciously shooting high, among other things, was actually quite a common practice. The average human has something of a psychological safety mechanism that causes them to not want to be responsible for the taking of a human life. It wasn't until post World War II that more advanced methods of collecting battlefield data and a better understanding of how the mind works allowed for the creation of modified training methods that allowed that safety mechanism to be intentionally disengaged, so to speak. The result has (hypothetically) been an increase in both the percentage of soldiers willing to kill an enemy combatant and the percentage of soldiers who suffer from psychological repercussions as a result.

There's an interesting, frequently quoted book by David Grossman called "On Killing" that discusses some of these concepts. Though I must admit I found fault with a lot of his data and resulting conclusions, it's nonetheless an interesting read for those good enough at practicing skepticism to be able to separate the bullshit from the useful information.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like yakherder's post
24-02-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
One of my great uncles was a Marine during WWII and the entire time I knew him, he was a very strong atheist, stating that there is no god. His wife didn't seem to care that he was an atheist, she just asked that he not be so adamant about there not being a god when she had other ladies at their house, The ladies were likely to be Presbyterians to some degree. I knew some the ladies who went to her Presbyterian church, it seemed that going to their church was a social event rather than a religious event, they had to keep up appearances

One time he said that some people claim that there are no atheists in foxholes, he told me that many Marines BECAME atheists while in a foxhole.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Bubba's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: