There are no atheists in the military
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27-01-2011, 08:18 AM
RE: There are no atheists in the military
He did mention unbelievers in his inaugural speech, he got some minor flak for that. Pretty much just Fox news asking what he meant by that and if it was okay. Still, faced with a country of raised brows and a dropping popularity, it might have been a conscience choice to omit atheists.


(26-01-2011 02:41 PM)gamutman Wrote:  You know, if ten years ago, Al Gore had won his court case and been president during 9/11, we'd have had eight years of actual progress. (Actually, I have reason to suspect that 9/11 might not have happened under a Gore presidency - and no, that's not Truther inside-job madness. Gore would have continued Clinton's successful anti-terrorism programs and he'd have stayed focused on bin Laden like Sandy Berger told Bush to do.) But I digress.

Now you got me thinking wishfully. I wish he would run again, and win. Not that I think Obama was necessarily a bad choice(thank god it wasn't McCain/Palin), but there is a lot of things wrong, not all his fault.

Imagine! We'd have eight years of government funded stem cell research for one. That people that perhaps, right now, people once condemned to a life in a chair could be walking along a beach(not to mention the lives that would be saved). And then we get to green energy. And I agree that the idea of 9/11 being prevented is a real possibility, and if not, I'm sure Gore wouldn't have sent our troops to the Vietnam of the 21st century like Bush did.

He wouldn't have given huge tax cuts to the rich, and refused to repeal them after being shown that is it driving out economy into a nose dive. Does anyone else want to make an interdimensional teleportation device?

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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27-01-2011, 03:45 PM
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(27-01-2011 08:18 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Does anyone else want to make an interdimensional teleportation device?

Yes. I want to go back and give myself a book that shows all the results of all the investment opportunities since the day I was old enough to invest.To the day I die Big Grin

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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31-01-2011, 10:38 AM
 
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(26-01-2011 06:33 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Anthraxfan, Bush had a weak economy brought about by several of his policies, plus he used the housing bubble to prop up what advances his economy seemed to have. Additionally, Bush was touting the ownership society platform which is not something liberals give two hoots about. All tolled, these things coalesced with the sub-prime boom to cause the eventual collapse. The entire time, as I mentioned before, there were wiser voices warning of the collapse to come. I don't see where Gore would have had the same incentives to ignore those warnings. He probably would have had a very different platform which was not focused on undermining social programs and was also not dependent upon glorifying some Ayn Randian utopia. All things considered, I think it's very reasonable to think that a Gore presidency may have staved off the recession.

Now, I will concede that many of the things which caused the problems are things that have more to do with weak foreign economies, but much of those problems are actually rooted in the anemic dollar. So it's not possible to actually know one way or the other. However, if I was writing a novel about an alternate reality in which Gore had been named president, I think I could believably write it with no major recession.

First off, BnW, where are you getting that it was Veto Proof? I never read that anywhere in anything. Thank you!

As for this, I don't believe Gore would have starved off a recession, as I don't know for sure what his policy were for it, or to it. I see what Clinton did, and see how Gore would have followed his lead.

I do not think we would have the Tax Cuts and 2 failed wars which helped the debt in the country, I also feel he would have used money to rebuild the country, helping sustain the economy. I think the recession does happen, just not to the extend we have had it.

Gore, IMO might have been better, but in no way is/was a savior at all. Just less damage than we have now.
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31-01-2011, 10:50 AM
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(31-01-2011 10:38 AM)AnthraxFan93 Wrote:  
(26-01-2011 06:33 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Anthraxfan, Bush had a weak economy brought about by several of his policies, plus he used the housing bubble to prop up what advances his economy seemed to have. Additionally, Bush was touting the ownership society platform which is not something liberals give two hoots about. All tolled, these things coalesced with the sub-prime boom to cause the eventual collapse. The entire time, as I mentioned before, there were wiser voices warning of the collapse to come. I don't see where Gore would have had the same incentives to ignore those warnings. He probably would have had a very different platform which was not focused on undermining social programs and was also not dependent upon glorifying some Ayn Randian utopia. All things considered, I think it's very reasonable to think that a Gore presidency may have staved off the recession.

Now, I will concede that many of the things which caused the problems are things that have more to do with weak foreign economies, but much of those problems are actually rooted in the anemic dollar. So it's not possible to actually know one way or the other. However, if I was writing a novel about an alternate reality in which Gore had been named president, I think I could believably write it with no major recession.

First off, BnW, where are you getting that it was Veto Proof? I never read that anywhere in anything. Thank you!

As for this, I don't believe Gore would have starved off a recession, as I don't know for sure what his policy were for it, or to it. I see what Clinton did, and see how Gore would have followed his lead.

I do not think we would have the Tax Cuts and 2 failed wars which helped the debt in the country, I also feel he would have used money to rebuild the country, helping sustain the economy. I think the recession does happen, just not to the extend we have had it.

Gore, IMO might have been better, but in no way is/was a savior at all. Just less damage than we have now.

I think that's what I said.
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31-01-2011, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2011 04:46 PM by BnW.)
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(31-01-2011 10:38 AM)AnthraxFan93 Wrote:  First off, BnW, where are you getting that it was Veto Proof? I never read that anywhere in anything. Thank you!

Most of the provisions of the Glass Steagall Act were repealed in 1999 by the passing of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLBA). When GLBA hit Clinton's desk, it had passed the Senate by a vote of 90 - 8 (92% "yes" votes), and it has passed the House by a vote of 362-57 (86% "yes" votes). The US Constitution states that a Presidential veto can be overturned by a 2/3 vote (66% yes votes) of both houses of Congress. Now, I'm not a mathematician or anything, but I'm pretty sure those "yes" votes far exceeded the 2/3 requirement. If Clinton had vetoed the bill, it would have been over ridden by Congress immediately. Even if some Democrats jumped ship, it would have taken a massive change of heart in order for them to not to override Clinton's veto. There is no way that was going to happen. No way, no how, now chance. So, the bill was going through whether Clinton agreed with it or not (and I honestly don't know if he did or didn't). Hence the use of the phrase "veto proof".

As for those of you who are arguing that Gore would have raised some magic wand that would have staved off this recession, I think you may want to spend some time looking at the tech bubble and subsequent crash, the causes of the 2001-02 recession and when that all started. You may want to also look at the Democrats position on the housing market from the mid-90s up until the crash. I think some of you may be shocked at what you learn.

The only things we can really assume would have been different if Gore had won that election are:
1. We would not have gone to war in Iraq (but I think it's a sure bet we would have gone to war in Afghanistan); and
2. We would not have had the depth of tax cuts that we had under Bush (but we most certainly would have had a massive tax cut or spending increase to try to fight the recession).

Beyond that, who knows. And, it's also impossible to say what the economic impacts of those things would have been. Fighting only 1 war would have reduced the amount of money we borrowed and probably would have strengthened the dollar, but also would have weakened our exports some. I think the housing market still melts down, and I think the traps that allowed such a massive collapse
were already well in place before Bush even took office. A Gore administration may have toughed up the stance on accounting standards and how some of these off-shore entities reported their numbers, but a) there is no way to know that and it's not like the Dems were screaming about this anyway and b) the bigger issue was the cheap credit and the wanton fraud that went with that and the Dems were throwing logs on that fire so no reason to think they would have acted differently.

Bush totally sucked as a President, worst in the modern era, but the idea that we would have had utopia with Gore is, I think, not based on either facts or reality.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-02-2011, 02:51 AM
 
RE: There are no atheists in the military
Honestly?

I look at the media response tot he word atheists in his inauguration address amd i can tell pretty clearly why he didnt mention us tihs time
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01-02-2011, 08:51 AM
 
RE: There are no atheists in the military
BnW, I gotcha I thought you were going in a different direction with it. And I agree 100% of what you are stating about Gore, we don't know shit.. We can speculate all we want!

Bush was bad for the world, just not the US. I think we can all agree to that.
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01-02-2011, 09:04 AM
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(31-01-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  The only things we can really assume would have been different if Gore had won that election are:
1. We would not have gone to war in Iraq (but I think it's a sure bet we would have gone to war in Afghanistan);

I think I've laid out a pretty good argument that Gore would have taken a different approach to bin laden BEFORE 9/11. This suggests first that 9/11 may not have happened which would mean no war in Afghanistan. Additionally, even if 9/11 still did happen, Bush asked the Taliban to turn over bin Laden and they agreed to turn him over to a tribunal. Bush said that was insufficient, but never explained why that was insufficient. Gore may have accepted that and there'd have been no war.

Additionally, Clinton had a similar incident with Ramzi Yousef, and we followed criminal law rules to take him into custody. So I actually do think there'd have been no Afghanistan war under a Gore presidency.
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01-02-2011, 10:59 AM
RE: There are no atheists in the military
(01-02-2011 09:04 AM)gamutman Wrote:  I think I've laid out a pretty good argument that Gore would have taken a different approach to bin laden BEFORE 9/11.

Yes, I saw the comment about Clinton's successful anti-terrorism policies. However, the facts are that we were hit in 1996 when they bombed our barracks in Saudi, in 1998 or 99 when they hit our 2 embassies in Africa, and in 2000 when they almost sank the Cole. So, the idea that those policies were providing us a measure of safety are, in my view at least, not based on the facts.

As for the idea that we could have stopped 9/11, who knows. I've a friend who is convinced of this but I simply don't think it's based on any objective view of reality. The FBI in Minnesota were on to these guys but no one up the chain of command would listen. There is no denying that President Hayseed took his eye off this particular ball, but the idea that a change at the top would have had an impact on procedures 20 levels down the food chain just seem like an impossible supposition, certainly not one that I find believable. Anything is possible, but it is highly unlikely we would have stopped 9/11 regardless of who was in charge.

(01-02-2011 09:04 AM)gamutman Wrote:  Additionally, even if 9/11 still did happen, Bush asked the Taliban to turn over bin Laden and they agreed to turn him over to a tribunal. Bush said that was insufficient, but never explained why that was insufficient. Gore may have accepted that and there'd have been no war.

Impossible to say what a President Gore would have done but my own opinion is no President would have been willing to negotiate with the Taliban at that point. They were seen as the political arm of Al Queda and there was no shortage of countries who were backing the US position that they were a terrorist regime who needed to be taken out. My own guess as to what would have happened is that Gore would have gone to war in Afghanistan, but unlike Bush he would have accepted all the offers of help to really make it a multi-national alliance, and he never would let up when we had that scumbag pinned down in the mountains of Tora Bora and let him escape. So, yes, probably still better off but who knows what would have happened next. Afghanistan is a mess and I doubt a Prez Gore would have any impact on that. We could easily still be stuck there. But, I think there is almost no chance we are in Iraq for 8 years.

Anyway, Gore did not win so while it's fun to play "what if", it serves no real useful purpose.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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