"There had to have been something"
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09-06-2012, 01:51 AM
"There had to have been something"
"There had to have been something". This is the main argument that Christians use when we state that the Universe was not created by a deity. They seem to have an issue grasping the very concept of "Nothing" or "Non-existence". They claim that by stating that the Universe sprung from nothing, we are going against the very science that we support. This is simply not true. I thought of doing a Youtube video with my thoughts on the matter, but then I remembered how horrible of a speaker I am and decided to put my thoughts into literature. This is essentially my view on the cause of the Big Bang and the creation of the Universe. It's such a simple idea that I'm sure a great deal of others have come to the same realization as me.



In your mind, strip away everything. Take away humans, the Earth, the moon, and the sun. Take away the solar system and our galaxy and all the other galaxies in the universe. Take away physics and science and matter and energy. Take away color, and blackness and light. Take away empty space, for it is a bendable, twistable entity, as well as time. If you're religious, take away your God, and the Heavens, and Hell. Take away everything that pops into your mind, as well as your mind itself and your very being. Once all of this is gone, what's left? Absolutely Nothing.

In this form of complete and total nothingness, where are the rules to say that a pig can't materialize and grow wings and then fly? Where are the rules to say that the sun can't suddenly turn pink? Where are the rules to say that we fall down rather than up? And finally, where are the rules to say that everything we took away cannot explode into existence?

This is a very difficult concept to grasp for most people. Our minds are programmed to consider existence to be the more chaotic of the two, when in reality, a world where nothing exists is far more chaotic then a world filled with signs of existence. In nothingness, -ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING- is possible. From what I see, it seems as if the Universe was simply the first thing to spring from this chaotic plain of non-existence.
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09-06-2012, 02:01 AM
RE: "There had to have been something"
A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Kruass is an amazing read. You should check it out.

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09-06-2012, 06:16 AM
RE: "There had to have been something"
Hey, ppp.

That's an interesting argument. Good stuff. I don't know if it quite accompishes everything you want it to, but you opened my mind to something new. Thank you.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-06-2012, 07:46 AM
RE: "There had to have been something"
Yeah this is a new concept to me as well, I hadn't considered that before. Thank you for your insights!
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09-06-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: "There had to have been something"
The tired old argument by theists is that you can't get something from nothing; therefore, a god must exist to have created it.
There is nothing to say that all the matter/energy in the universe has not always existed. Rationally it probably has, we just don't know how or what it was. We do know all the elements that make us are from dead stars, but what before that?
90% of the mass of the universe is unknown to us (Krauss).
We are continually discovering why things work the way they do. We are just scratching the surface.
Doesn't mean a designer or a creator intended anything or that there is one to speak of.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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09-06-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: "There had to have been something"
But the biggest counter-arguement to that is, then where did God come from? They think they have absolutely destroyed atheists by saying that, but they never stop to think how their god actually formed.
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09-06-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: "There had to have been something"
(09-06-2012 02:44 PM)Magoo Wrote:  But the biggest counter-arguement to that is, then where did God come from? They think they have absolutely destroyed atheists by saying that, but they never stop to think how their god actually formed.

Many of the creationists that I have come across brush this counter-argument away by saying that their god is outside of space and time, therefore he doesn't need a creator; he has always existed. They feel a supernatural being doesn't have to adhere to real world physics. It's funny how the location of god keeps on getting moved further afield when science shows he wasn't where Christians originally claimed. For example, thousands of years ago, people might say their gods reside in the mountains (the Greeks and Chinese are good examples of this). Of course a person who climbs a particular mountain said to be the abode of gods will find nothing. Then a believer will have to relocate their god to the sky. Hot air balloons and airplanes did away with this notion. Then god was relocated outside of earth. Hubble hasn't turned up any gods yet, so people have to resort to either "god is in your heart," or "god is outside of space and time." It's all silly.
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10-06-2012, 12:05 AM
RE: "There had to have been something"
(09-06-2012 03:05 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(09-06-2012 02:44 PM)Magoo Wrote:  But the biggest counter-arguement to that is, then where did God come from? They think they have absolutely destroyed atheists by saying that, but they never stop to think how their god actually formed.

Many of the creationists that I have come across brush this counter-argument away by saying that their god is outside of space and time, therefore he doesn't need a creator; he has always existed. They feel a supernatural being doesn't have to adhere to real world physics. It's funny how the location of god keeps on getting moved further afield when science shows he wasn't where Christians originally claimed. For example, thousands of years ago, people might say their gods reside in the mountains (the Greeks and Chinese are good examples of this). Of course a person who climbs a particular mountain said to be the abode of gods will find nothing. Then a believer will have to relocate their god to the sky. Hot air balloons and airplanes did away with this notion. Then god was relocated outside of earth. Hubble hasn't turned up any gods yet, so people have to resort to either "god is in your heart," or "god is outside of space and time." It's all silly.
The concept of Nothing is outside of space and time as well, for in nothing, space and time do not exist. In a sense, you can consider the Universe's God to be "Nothing", based off of what I put forward earlier.
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12-06-2012, 11:27 AM
 
RE: "There had to have been something"
(09-06-2012 01:51 AM)pppgggr Wrote:  In your mind, strip away everything. Take away humans, the Earth, the moon, and the sun. Take away the solar system and our galaxy and all the other galaxies in the universe. Take away physics and science and matter and energy. Take away color, and blackness and light. Take away empty space, for it is a bendable, twistable entity, as well as time. If you're religious, take away your God, and the Heavens, and Hell. Take away everything that pops into your mind, as well as your mind itself and your very being. Once all of this is gone, what's left? Absolutely Nothing.

In this form of complete and total nothingness, where are the rules to say that a pig can't materialize and grow wings and then fly? Where are the rules to say that the sun can't suddenly turn pink? Where are the rules to say that we fall down rather than up? And finally, where are the rules to say that everything we took away cannot explode into existence?

This is a very difficult concept to grasp for most people. Our minds are programmed to consider existence to be the more chaotic of the two, when in reality, a world where nothing exists is far more chaotic then a world filled with signs of existence. In nothingness, -ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING- is possible. From what I see, it seems as if the Universe was simply the first thing to spring from this chaotic plain of non-existence.

We normally think there have to be rules that allow things to exist, and those rules don't exist in the very accurate description of nothingness that you stated. What you are describing is magical thinking. You begin with nothing and then contingent things pop into existence for no reason from that nothingness because there is nothing to prevent them from popping into existence. That's not logic. Even if it is ultimately true, it's not the way our minds conceive things, so it can never succeed as a true argument.

It is less magical to postulate an eternal being, something that simply is and always has been and has never not been. Such a being may not be real in the end, but it's the only thing our minds can theorize without slipping into magical thinking. Within the realm of logic, there is room for one being that is not contingent but is rather perfect and eternal--but there can only be one such being. We call that being God. And furthermore, logic dictates that such a being is necessary. Why? Because there are contingent things in existence--and that is undeniable.
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12-06-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: "There had to have been something"
(12-06-2012 11:27 AM)Egor Wrote:  It is less magical to postulate an eternal being...

In Xanadu maybe. Tongue

Void ain't magical thinking, it's mathematical thinking. And yeah, most peeps avoid math like the plague.

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