There is no Science V. Religion
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11-01-2012, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 07:05 AM by CaluMew.)
There is no Science V. Religion
Ever since the time of Greek philosophy and discovery, to the Renaissance and modern enlightenment. There has been a cliche of Science V. Religion.

If deeper analysis is conducted however, some people might find - to their discomfort that this aged old cliche is rather stupid or incorrect. Science does not battle religion and you could say it was the other way around.

Ancient Greek philosophy and discovery for example. Now you can't deny that ancient Greeks were themsleves religious. Nonetheless they favoured and treasured knowledege, understanding and reason above anything else and no where more than the city of Alexandria. The library of Alexandria was the foothold of ancient eductation and pinacle of Human knowledge. The place that held collections of famous philosopher's books by Aristarchus of Samos, Aristotle, Hypersia etc...even famous cultural figures like Sophacles. These Greeks considered science and knowledge to be seperate and sometimes merged but never collided violently.

However religious uprest was rife throughout the Middle-East and Eygpt and ignorance and fundementalism became more favourable. The library was inevitably destroyed a second time for holding pagan artifacts in 391 AD and only tiny percents of knowledge were recovered. A damaging casualty of the furousity of religious fanatics but this is a great example of how science is miscanstrued and oppressed by sacared individuals.

Science is the study of the natural world and its laws. Science in itself is the natural universe and everything in it, it stands for everything Humans know and can know. Science is not a weapon neither does it oppress a religious virtue or doctrine however it is constantly and has been threatened, attacked and oppressed by the doctrines of religious groups throughout history. Science has no link to any religion but researchs the natural universe and so threatens religious doctrines that assert or have asserted facts of their own about the natural universe. Science then proves that the fact is inadequate or wrong when Humans discover otherwise.

Science is never wrong because it is in itself the laws of the natural universe and the natural universe. However Human observation of Science has the potential to be wrong (Flat-earth theory, Earth being the center of the solar system and creationism).

Therefore Science V. Religion is BS, although i'm open to discussion so post your opinions.

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
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11-01-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
But you are assuming reality is real. I live in America. Har Megiddo ain't some Israeli archaeology dig; it's right here, right now, in the American mindset. Ours is a culture of consumerism, determined by a delusion of ever-increasing wealth; where the common man is clearly guilty of Not Thinking when he sidles up to the Religious Right and their empty promises of prosperity. We have Creationist theme parks at one scale of the spectrum and Patriot Acts at the other; and oh yes, they are all of a type.

Joe Blow on the street is being sold a bill of goods for the security of a nation based upon the exploitation of the simple faith of the common man that God represents the ultimate security; and to accomplish this mass hallucination the elite must market ignorance and control the spread of information, for the elite's vision of national security is feeding on the despair of the rest of the world.

I ain't that kind of American. I'm the kind of American who understands "We the People" must refer to all People for it to benefit any People; that freedom and liberty should have equal meaning in Arabic and Swahili as it does in English, lest America become just another word for oligarchy and exploitation.

And your history is a little - non-historic. Science as we know it is a very recent development; arising from what was known in the mid nineteenth century as natural philosophy. You speak of comfortable, modern ideals pandered by the mass media. Talking heads in fancy dress pontificating from television studios, "why can't we all just get along?" For many there is no conflict; in my terms it is science and faith that have coexisted and will continue to coexist.

This is faith; an atheist who speaks with moral certainty. Religion is organized power structure that is by its very nature inimical to scientific investigation.

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11-01-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
You are correct in restating the conflict as 'religion vs science' - but only if religion=christianity, and even then, only if christianity=the priesthood.

Religion itself - that is, the belief system or holy writ, has nothing to say about science, is not concerned with the means of acquiring knowledge. Other religious institutions haven't been inimical to knowledge per se, though all priestly hierarchies are jealous of their exclusive access to arcane lore. And, of course, science does nothing, attacks nobody: it's only a concept. Scientists may have personal opinions regarding religion, but they certainly do not form a solid front. Their attitudes range from profound piety to adamant opposition.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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11-01-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
In my opinion, such debates all boil down to the core of these two seemingly different sectors.

Science - Here's the evidence. What's the conclusion?
Religion - Here's the conclusion. Find the evidence

We have to give credit that religion was our first attempt at science and morality, but that doesn't mean that without religion, there will be no science and morality.

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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11-01-2012, 09:16 AM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
Religion imposes limits. Christianity is definitely at the forefront of triumphal ignorance; but any mention of god, in terms of the scientific method, is a conclusion and not an observation. What is religion other than structured dogma derived from moral paradigm that is inductive and not deductive? Isn't induction inherently flawed?

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11-01-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
Religion asserts that something exists without evidence.
Science helps us to describe what exists using evidence.

I can assert a million and one fantasies about the universe with non of them being true.
My mind puts no limits on what I can imagine about the world.
I can say that gravity is nothing more than a strange earth elemental breathing in the cosmic energy of attraction.
Science will work out all the math behind it and have it be accurate and useful in all it's predictions, but they will not find any evidence of my earth elemental breathing in.
WHY ? - Because it's my fantasy

I can spray imaginary perfume on the flowers to make them smell wonderful or paint imaginary gold over real gold to make it seem more precious to me.

God is our universal imagined Earth Elemental that is fantasized as being a cause for something that science observes as happening naturally.

Science v Religion = Fact v Fantasy

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-01-2012, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 12:23 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
(11-01-2012 12:10 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Religion asserts that something exists without evidence.
Science helps us to describe what exists using evidence.

this is true

Quote: robotworld
Science - Here's the evidence. What's the conclusion?
Religion - Here's the conclusion. Find the evidence

this is true

Quote:Science v Religion = Fact v Fantasy

this is true but not applicable

A choice between two things or two ways of doing things or two modes of living is not necessarily a conflict between those two entities. There need not be any conflict, as many people are able and willing to have, use and live by both.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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11-01-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
(11-01-2012 12:16 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(11-01-2012 12:10 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Religion asserts that something exists without evidence.
Science helps us to describe what exists using evidence.

this is true

Quote: robotworld
Science - Here's the evidence. What's the conclusion?
Religion - Here's the conclusion. Find the evidence

this is true

Quote:Science v Religion = Fact v Fantasy

this is true but not applicable

A choice between two things or two ways of doing things or two modes of living is not necessarily a conflict between those two entities. There need not be any conflict, as many people are able and willing to have, use and live by both.

There is no way to avoid cognitive dissonance if one tries to follow both science and religion. Science keeps pushing back the realm of religion and there is now almost no place to stand in that diminishing realm.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2012, 04:10 PM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
I disagree - science is fundamentally incompatible with religion.

The whole basis of science is understanding the world around you with evidence and reason based on that evidence.

The whole basis of religion is understanding the world around you with faith.
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11-01-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: There is no Science V. Religion
Here is Neil deGrasse Tyson to add some figures to the debate.
The more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious.



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