There is no such thing as evil
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18-06-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For example, I've been not murdering all my life 24 hours a day and it wasn't all that difficult.
Murder is a term based on human made law. Murder being an unlawful killing of another human.

To make this universal you would have to take out the dependance on human law.
Thus, let's just say "killing of another human". But this is hardly universal because it makes humans special, what about cows, what about ant, trees and vegetables? It is also problematic because a fetus is also human and most people think its OK for a mother to kill her fetus.

In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?

It doesn't care. Nor, is there any reason to think moral values and duties are anything more than the subjective opinions of human beings who have evolved with a "herd-morality". This is something I was talking with true scotsman about.

Those that think like you stevil (which are the majority of respondents to my OP) should have no misgivings with agreeing that the following statement is plausibly true:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
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18-06-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 06:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?

It doesn't care. Nor, is there any reason to think moral values and duties are anything more than the subjective opinions of human beings who have evolved with a "herd-morality". This is something I was talking with true scotsman about.

Those that think like you stevil (which are the majority of respondents to my OP) should have no misgivings with agreeing that the following statement is plausibly true:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
And of course, if a god does exist then the god's belief in morality is merely the god's own subjective opinions which also doesn't count as objective moral truths.
Human's, cows, ants, plants, vegetable etc would have no incentive to even care about the opinions of a god.
The only objective truths of the universe are what can be discovered using the scientific method and this discounts morality. Science cannot distinguish between good and bad.
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18-06-2014, 07:17 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  An objective morality necessarily entails moral imperatives. By definition.
Yes, but these moral imperatives can, in fact must be negative. It is impossible to make a positive moral imperative, because then it would be immoral to do anything but that imperative 24 hours a day continuously. Logic is quite relentless in that.

OTOH, a negative moral obligation is universally valid and fulfilled by default, unless you violate it with some positive action.
For example, I've been not murdering all my life 24 hours a day and it wasn't all that difficult.

It's sad you can't see how inadequate that is.

There is no such distinction. It's meaningless; "Don't A" and "Do not-A" are semantically equivalent.

I guarantee two further things:
A) that you have done things in your life which other people would judge morally wrong.
B) that there are people who have committed murder who do not think they have committed moral wrongs.

Whoops! So much for the objectivity of the lunatic fringe.

(18-06-2014 04:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Universal means pertaining to all instances of an objective category. If you make a positive moral rule, it's already wrong, because it's inconsistent - you get to make a rule and others don't?
Nope, you can only claim universal morality by deriving it from the first principles, which are natural, certain, definite and undeniable. Then this rule was sort of already there and it's not your invention to make people do your bidding.

I cannot parse how this is even remotely a response to anything anyone else has said.

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18-06-2014, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2014 07:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

Agreed. But so the fuck what? Just cause they ain't objective don't mean you're relieved of your moral and ethical and social responsibilities. For an old man about the same age as my 51 yo fatass, your metaphysics are surprisingly childish and immature. Where'd you pick up all this rubbish?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-06-2014, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2014 09:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 06:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Murder is a term based on human made law. Murder being an unlawful killing of another human.

To make this universal you would have to take out the dependance on human law.
Thus, let's just say "killing of another human". But this is hardly universal because it makes humans special, what about cows, what about ant, trees and vegetables? It is also problematic because a fetus is also human and most people think its OK for a mother to kill her fetus.

In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?

It doesn't care. Nor, is there any reason to think moral values and duties are anything more than the subjective opinions of human beings who have evolved with a "herd-morality". This is something I was talking with true scotsman about.

Those that think like you stevil (which are the majority of respondents to my OP) should have no misgivings with agreeing that the following statement is plausibly true:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

Rubbish. And more rubbish.
What "objective moral values" exactly do you think you hold, that those without deities do not hold ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-06-2014, 07:30 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

They don't and they are not needed. We all have a moral compass, and for those who don't, we have the law.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-06-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 06:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Murder is a term based on human made law. Murder being an unlawful killing of another human.

To make this universal you would have to take out the dependance on human law.
Thus, let's just say "killing of another human". But this is hardly universal because it makes humans special, what about cows, what about ant, trees and vegetables? It is also problematic because a fetus is also human and most people think its OK for a mother to kill her fetus.

In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?

It doesn't care. Nor, is there any reason to think moral values and duties are anything more than the subjective opinions of human beings who have evolved with a "herd-morality". This is something I was talking with true scotsman about.

Those that think like you stevil (which are the majority of respondents to my OP) should have no misgivings with agreeing that the following statement is plausibly true:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

No evidence for god
No evidence for objective morality

What you are saying is:

If an imaginary car company does not exist
Then the imaginary cars they never manufactured also don't exist.

Seems about right.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-06-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 12:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Nope, I don't think so. We don't need anybody to put a stamp of approval on our property. All they need to do is to passively refrain from taking this property without permission, which is the default state of things. If I say something is my property, it is so until someone comes to challenge that.

Well, you claiming something as yours isn't the default state of things, either. You had to take an action to claim X. If someone else claims X, they put exactly the same amount of effort into it as you. Just because you claimed X first doesn't give you some intrinsic right to X. You only have that "right" because enough other people say you do and are willing to enforce that right..


(18-06-2014 12:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Anyway, if you aren't all enthusiastic about what I say, just say so. It took me years to learn this stuff and I'd love to find someone who's going to be so enthusiastic that he'll pass it on to others. If you're just like... 'meh... well, I must look further. Not everyone's a world problem solver.

It's more that I'm disagreeing with your stance.
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18-06-2014, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2014 12:59 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 02:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  EK: When your posts get too short, I don't read them. Your personality is disintegrating with your attention span.

My post was just as long as yours dumbass, what a piss-poor attempt at deflection. Not all of us need to use word-salad and obfuscation to get our points across. Drinking Beverage

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19-06-2014, 01:59 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2014 02:26 AM by Luminon.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 06:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For example, I've been not murdering all my life 24 hours a day and it wasn't all that difficult.
Murder is a term based on human made law. Murder being an unlawful killing of another human.

To make this universal you would have to take out the dependance on human law.
Thus, let's just say "killing of another human". But this is hardly universal because it makes humans special, what about cows, what about ant, trees and vegetables? It is also problematic because a fetus is also human and most people think its OK for a mother to kill her fetus.

In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?
Nah, you could find faults in every formulation. I wrote "murder", because I understand it like killing another human against his will, which is violation of the principle of integrity, just like theft - but I couldn't say I haven't stolen anything all my life Tongue And then there's killing in self-defense and assisted suicide, which is well with the principle of integrity, or as some would say, self-ownership.

Laws, both divine and secular are just words on paper. Writing them on paper doesn't magically define the actions as good or bad. The social actions have existed since the dawn of society and they have had consequences since then. Law is just an opinion with a gun, written by people I didn't vote for and voting is nonsense anyway.

I feel that the positivism, what isn't on paper, isn't a crime, is just like saying what isn't in Bible, isn't sin. (and you're an atheist because you want to sin) This is what Nazis counted on. Holocaust was approved by a proper legislative procedure, it was legal. If the world was about laws on paper, the Allies would have to release the Nazis at the Nuremberg trial, because everything went according to the law (which they made themselves).

So since then the government admitted to philosophy, that there is such a thing as "natural law", that it's not all just paper. Well, that is a huge understatement. Law is just a bad replacement for philosophy. Philosophy and first principles are real properties matter and energy behavior in space and time. First principles are more real than man-made laws.

As for animals, yes, that is a good question. We (Moly and me) would say that animals operate in the state of nature, in which getting killed and eaten is a part of the deal. We evolved and cut ourselves a different deal with nature, animals didn't - and we're still a part of nature. We can reason another human, so eating people is wrong. But we can't reason with many animals.
I would say in my theory, that humans can greatly increase the variability of animal life through domestication even though we're eating some of them. Obviously, there is a huge room for improvement in human relations with animals. But it's not in our power to improve that, until we learn the basic human lessons: don't hit, keep your word, don't take what isn't yours. Until we learn that as a humanity, there's no way we can consistently help animals. Of course I respect vegetarians, activist groups and people who care for animals. And we are not yet perfectly consistent with our philosophy.
The problem isn't that we couldn't obey the rules of not hitting, keeping our word and not taking what isn't ours. Criminals aren't a threat to principles, criminals admit the existence of principles with their very actions. The problem is, we believe in bullshit cultural exceptions from these rules, called soldiers, elections and taxes, that these people aren't criminals.
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