There is no such thing as evil
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21-06-2014, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2014 04:12 PM by Luminon.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(21-06-2014 02:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  I'm personally amazed that out of a global population of over 7 billion we are lucky enough to have two people on this forum who are going to solve the world's problems between them.

I am of course talking about Luminon and Trainwreck.

I can't wait to see how they implement their world-changing ideas without being able to convince a single other person on this forum.
Nobody is going to solve global problems but whole humanity. Nobody can solve one's problems for someone else.
I am so angry when I discover that everyone knew what is right and what is wrong all along. The reason why evil exists is, that we choose to use and sacrifice other people to avoid momentary pain, anxiety or inconvenience. We use other people as instruments, drugs and toilets for our emotional venom. And then we of course lie and justify it with very convincing hypocrisy about goodness. The victims have no choice but to believe us and thus they gain a twisted, perverted view of values and what other people are for. A view nearly impossible to revise, because it's sealed with pain. When picked at, this pain provokes momentary anxiety and there are conveniently weaker, helpless vessels for poison around, also known as children... That is the photocopier of history.

Sorry. I'm grieving for the dead and the dead one is me.
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21-06-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(21-06-2014 02:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 12:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Anyway, if you aren't all enthusiastic about what I say, just say so. It took me years to learn this stuff and I'd love to find someone who's going to be so enthusiastic that he'll pass it on to others. If you're just like... 'meh... well, I must look further. Not everyone's a world problem solver.


(19-06-2014 03:16 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I just think you underestimate both my arguments and philosophy. Just like 99,99 % of people in the world.


I'm personally amazed that out of a global population of over 7 billion we are lucky enough to have two people on this forum who are going to solve the world's problems between them.

I am of course talking about Luminon and Trainwreck.

I can't wait to see how they implement their world-changing ideas without being able to convince a single other person on this forum.

We are certainly blessed. Lecture_preist

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(21-06-2014 04:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2014 02:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  I'm personally amazed that out of a global population of over 7 billion we are lucky enough to have two people on this forum who are going to solve the world's problems between them.

I am of course talking about Luminon and Trainwreck.

I can't wait to see how they implement their world-changing ideas without being able to convince a single other person on this forum.

We are certainly blessed. Lecture_preist

Why yes, yes we certainly are the lucky ones. Dodgy

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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21-06-2014, 06:57 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2014 09:11 PM by RobbyPants.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(20-06-2014 01:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I think the agreement about private ownership leads to economical success, that supersedes agreements about anything else and may even make many other disagreements irrelevant. Trade is very impersonal and it bridges differences of opinion. Some societies evolve, some don't, but that is a rather recent phenomenon.

Yes! Great! Now, prove it's objective.


(20-06-2014 01:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  "Just happen to be" is not an answer. The truth is, acceptance of private property brings success and productivity that allows more people to share the concept. Many other concepts spread like plague, but they damage their hosts. Private ownership helps people cooperate non-violently and economically productively, applying science and so on. That is an important distinction.

Yes! Great! Now, prove it's objective.


(20-06-2014 01:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Focus on the point and answer this:
Quote:What I mean is a similar enough method of arriving at conclusions!
Similar enough opinion spreads only by violence and indoctrination (violence on children), because it's a content, a conclusion.
Consistency has no content, no conclusion and so it can resolve differences between parties objectively, that is, with the things that are objectively present out there in the world, because that is what true concepts do. They connect subjective brain blips, sounds of language and objective objects. Language gives subjective brain blips a form that can be objectively evaluated and compared with things out there. There is no morality without recipients of language or actions out there.

Consistency isn't anything other than something being done in a predictable fashion. Sure, if things aren't predictable, it makes it hard to build a complex society. I like that. I'll even call it "good". And so will you.

And it's still a subjective opinion that most of us happen to share! (Yes, most, not all.)

You haven't proven how it's objective. All you've done is conflated the distinction between physical reactions in our brains and how we individually perceive them, but said because they had a physical origin they were real, but it's not the same as the unicorn I brought up because of special pleading, and I should listen to you because you're smarter than 99.99% of people and this is your field and not my field and I just don't understand.

*deep breath*

As far as I can tell, your "field" is bad induction backed by baseless assertions and bravado.
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22-06-2014, 05:01 AM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(21-06-2014 06:57 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Consistency isn't anything other than something being done in a predictable fashion. Sure, if things aren't predictable, it makes it hard to build a complex society. I like that. I'll even call it "good". And so will you.

And it's still a subjective opinion that most of us happen to share! (Yes, most, not all.)

You haven't proven how it's objective. All you've done is conflated the distinction between physical reactions in our brains and how we individually perceive them, but said because they had a physical origin they were real, but it's not the same as the unicorn I brought up because of special pleading, and I should listen to you because you're smarter than 99.99% of people and this is your field and not my field and I just don't understand.
There's no point. As long as people are even remotely involved in whatever I say, you'll just say it's subjective. Your idea of objectivity is "no humans involved".
If that is so, your disagreement is merely subjective. Drinking Beverage
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22-06-2014, 07:55 AM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(22-06-2014 05:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  There's no point. As long as people are even remotely involved in whatever I say, you'll just say it's subjective. Your idea of objectivity is "no humans involved".
If that is so, your disagreement is merely subjective. Drinking Beverage

No, it's not. A human can totally lift an object and have an objective effect on it.

The subjective part is opinions. Opinions aren't the totality of human action or interaction. It is, however, the totality of morality.
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22-06-2014, 08:43 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2014 09:06 AM by Luminon.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(22-06-2014 07:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 05:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  There's no point. As long as people are even remotely involved in whatever I say, you'll just say it's subjective. Your idea of objectivity is "no humans involved".
If that is so, your disagreement is merely subjective. Drinking Beverage

No, it's not. A human can totally lift an object and have an objective effect on it.

The subjective part is opinions. Opinions aren't the totality of human action or interaction. It is, however, the totality of morality.
I don't see what opinions have to do with that. No worthy philosopher out there has any respect to opinions. Specific claims or contents can never be permanent or permanently accurate, or were never true to begin with. If some people say that particular opinions are the totality of morality (usually theirs), then such "morality" is a lie and they are liars. The morality is in abstract method, without prescribed opinions or contents.

We can only connect in reality, never in fantasy. Fantasy leads to frustration and violence. Let's say we have entirely opposite and subjective opinions. Yet there is still a way to cooperate, if we speak and act consistently and do not talk about opinions. Opinions may be subjective. But consistency of action, method and speech is the measure of objectivity, because they happen outside of our heads. Some actions or words are just impossible or meaningless without consistency. Such actions lead nowhere (no science or technology) or to violence. Is that not objective? It is not the content that creates objectivity, it is the effect, the test, the practice, out there in the world. And that includes effect on other people, not just things.

The way to separate opinions from objectivity is to remember the method by which we arrived at them. Everyone remembers the method. A philosopher would say action or causality.
I don't say it as my opinion, this is the only way there can be a non-violent objective, consistent general conduct of social interaction, in other words, morality.
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22-06-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(22-06-2014 08:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  We can only connect in reality, never in fantasy. Fantasy leads to frustration and violence. Let's say we have entirely opposite and subjective opinions. Yet there is still a way to cooperate, if we speak and act consistently and do not talk about opinions. Opinions may be subjective. But consistency of action, method and speech is the measure of objectivity, because they happen outside of our heads. Some actions or words are just impossible or meaningless without consistency. Such actions lead nowhere (no science or technology) or to violence. Is that not objective? It is not the content that creates objectivity, it is the effect, the test, the practice, out there in the world. And that includes effect on other people, not just things.

Yes, cooperation is effective. It is very, very handy in many, many ways. That doesn't make it morally good; it makes it effective.

My hammer is very good at driving nails. My screwdriver isn't. This doesn't make my hammer more moral than the screwdriver. It doesn't even mean that it is more moral to use a hammer for nails and a screwdriver for screws; it's just more effective.

Yes, cooperation is the basis on how we get Taco Bell and the Internet, and I love that shit, but it still doesn't make it morally good.
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22-06-2014, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2014 12:55 PM by Luminon.)
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(22-06-2014 10:43 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yes, cooperation is effective. It is very, very handy in many, many ways. That doesn't make it morally good; it makes it effective.

My hammer is very good at driving nails. My screwdriver isn't. This doesn't make my hammer more moral than the screwdriver. It doesn't even mean that it is more moral to use a hammer for nails and a screwdriver for screws; it's just more effective.

Yes, cooperation is the basis on how we get Taco Bell and the Internet, and I love that shit, but it still doesn't make it morally good.
It seems to me you really, really don't want to talk about this. You keep dodging the point into this darwinistic, evolutionary, cooperative worldview, away from philosophy. Cooperation is NOT moral in itself, nobody says that, not even me. I think religious fundamentalists are pretty good at cooperation too, yet they're not moral. Coercion and other violence is by definition inconsistent, (I coerce you, but I don't want to be coerced myself) so the consistent alternative to violence is cooperation.

So firstly, I don't necessarily talk just about cooperation, I talk about consistency of thought, action and speech.

Secondly, what makes it (consistency) moral is the fact that it's a reliable way to avoid violence, pain and destruction and have a plenty of freedom on top of that. Fair enough?
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22-06-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(22-06-2014 12:27 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It seems to me you really, really don't want to talk about this. You keep dodging the point into this darwinistic, evolutionary, cooperative worldview, away from philosophy.

There's a difference between dodging and not accepting your point a priori, like you are. You have to back it first. You're still hung up on your initial, unfounded assumption.


(22-06-2014 12:27 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Secondly, what makes it (consistency) moral is the fact that it's a reliable way to avoid violence, pain and destruction and have a plenty of freedom on top of that. Fair enough?

What makes avoiding violence, pain, and destruction moral?
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