There is no such thing as evil
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18-06-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 03:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 03:39 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In which case, I don't think you understand what objective morality entails...
No argument? I win! Clap

In what universe does "I don't think you fully understand what you've said" become "I agree with what you've said"?

Certainly not this one.

Perhaps yours, apparently.

I guess.

(18-06-2014 03:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Show me a positive universal moral rule and I'll believe you. Right now I'd say it's impossible, except for objective biological differences, such as childhood and parenting. But these are not universal, they're empirical.

Do you understand what objective means?

Your extraordinarily subjective definitions and tragically facile "examples" are not sufficient. Thanks for playing!

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18-06-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Do you understand what objective means?
Yes. In the human world, it means extra-personal and interpersonal.
Do you understand what universal means?
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18-06-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Do you understand what objective means?
Yes. In the human world, it means extra-personal and interpersonal.

An objective morality necessarily entails moral imperatives. By definition.

(18-06-2014 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Do you understand what universal means?

Of or relating to the universe.

Are you going somewhere with this?

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18-06-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes. In the human world, it means extra-personal and interpersonal.

An objective morality necessarily entails moral imperatives. By definition.

(18-06-2014 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Do you understand what universal means?

Of or relating to the universe.

Are you going somewhere with this?

No he's not, well other than to the fallacy bin where he has been getting the rest of his argument.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-06-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  An objective morality necessarily entails moral imperatives. By definition.


Of or relating to the universe.

Are you going somewhere with this?

No he's not, well other than to the fallacy bin where he has been getting the rest of his argument.

Wait, you mean I can't just declare my subjective personal stances to be "objective" and expect other people to take me seriously?

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18-06-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
Oh, even better. I just realized that I, too, possess an objective morality. Wanna hear it?

"Be... excellent, to each other".

What, you don't think that's good enough? Because "excellent" is a subjective and situational concept?

Bah! Clearly, anyone who disagrees with me must be some sort of violent brainwashed government Nazi Reptiloid.

(IN CASE YOU CAN'T TELL I'M BEING SLIGHTLY SARCASTIC)

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18-06-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No he's not, well other than to the fallacy bin where he has been getting the rest of his argument.

Wait, you mean I can't just declare my subjective personal stances to be "objective" and expect other people to take me seriously?

Inorite rulez is unfair. Damn gub'ment.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-06-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-06-2014 04:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Wait, you mean I can't just declare my subjective personal stances to be "objective" and expect other people to take me seriously?

Inorite rulez is unfair. Damn gub'ment.

I assume lessons in this language are complementary when joining the Cult of Cthulhu?

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18-06-2014, 04:30 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  An objective morality necessarily entails moral imperatives. By definition.
Yes, but these moral imperatives can, in fact must be negative. It is impossible to make a positive moral imperative, because then it would be immoral to do anything but that imperative 24 hours a day continuously. Logic is quite relentless in that.

OTOH, a negative moral obligation is universally valid and fulfilled by default, unless you violate it with some positive action.
For example, I've been not murdering all my life 24 hours a day and it wasn't all that difficult.

(18-06-2014 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Of or relating to the universe.

Are you going somewhere with this?
Universal means pertaining to all instances of an objective category. If you make a positive moral rule, it's already wrong, because it's inconsistent - you get to make a rule and others don't?
Nope, you can only claim universal morality by deriving it from the first principles, which are natural, certain, definite and undeniable. Then this rule was sort of already there and it's not your invention to make people do your bidding.
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18-06-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: There is no such thing as evil
(18-06-2014 04:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For example, I've been not murdering all my life 24 hours a day and it wasn't all that difficult.
Murder is a term based on human made law. Murder being an unlawful killing of another human.

To make this universal you would have to take out the dependance on human law.
Thus, let's just say "killing of another human". But this is hardly universal because it makes humans special, what about cows, what about ant, trees and vegetables? It is also problematic because a fetus is also human and most people think its OK for a mother to kill her fetus.

In terms of universal, why do you think the universe cares about humans?
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