Thermodynamics & teleonomy
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03-02-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Thermodynamics & teleonomy
So I was in a debate on youtube, and a person says the laws of thermodynamics disprove evolution. which i then told them Claims that thermodynamics disprove evolution were started by people like 'Dr. Duane T Gish' who decided to cut off the second half of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you cut off the second half of the law then it does mean that evolution isn't possible, but as soon as you put it back you realise that Duane T Gish was providing false information by obscuring the laws.

Then they said the answer I seek to disprove evolution is in the principal of teleonomy. I'm not familiar with teleonomy and I can't find too much about it online.

Does thermodynamics disprove evolution (I doubt) and does teleonomy disprove evolution?
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03-02-2011, 03:12 PM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
Quote:Does thermodynamics disprove evolution (I doubt) and does teleonomy disprove evolution?
Thermodynamics? No. Teleonomy? Probably not (I'm citing sourceless text from wikipedia).

From wikipedia:
Quote:Teleonomy is the quality of apparent purposefulness and of goal-directedness of structures and functions in living organisms that derive from their evolutionary history, adaptation for reproductive success, or generally, due to the operation of a program.

The term was coined to stand in contrast with teleology, which applies to ends that are planned by an agent which can internally model/imagine various alternative futures, which enables intention, purpose and foresight. A teleonomic process, such as evolution, produces complex products without the benefit of such a guiding foresight. Evolution largely hoards hindsight, as variations unwittingly make "predictions" about structures and functions which could successfully cope with the future, and participate in an audition which culls the also-rans, leaving winners for the next generation. Information accumulates about functions and structures that are successful, exploiting feedback from the environment via the selection of fitter coalitions of structures and functions. These features also have been described by Robert Rosen as an anticipatory system which builds an internal model based on past and possible futures states. Teleonomy is related to programmatic or computational aspects of purpose. Richard Dawkins has also described the properties of "archeo-purpose" and "neo-purpose" in his talk on the "purpose of purpose."
There's one source though, but it seems to be in video form: http://richarddawkins.net/videos/3956-th...of-purpose

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03-02-2011, 03:50 PM
 
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
well after searching about teleonomy disproving evolution, google could only come up with three pages and some of them were irrelevant, so it leads me to believe the creationist im talking to doesn't know what they are talking about


They also said
"Mutation by variation doesn't support the evolutionary tale..."

.. how am i supposed to reply to that..
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03-02-2011, 04:01 PM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
Quote:"Mutation by variation doesn't support the evolutionary tale..."
I don't get the sentence. Do you?
Or does s/he mean Variation by mutation rather than Mutation by variation?

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03-02-2011, 04:36 PM
 
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
(03-02-2011 04:01 PM)Kikko Wrote:  
Quote:"Mutation by variation doesn't support the evolutionary tale..."
I don't get the sentence. Do you?
Or does s/he mean Variation by mutation rather than Mutation by variation?

possibly.



I asked them to prove god exists and they said

Super massive black holes in relation to dark energy & gravity. Sun & moon distance effectives. The water flux & protection of the sphere's. Earth's 23* tilt on perfect axis supporting life. The rhythm of your heartbeat. A red blood cell's makeup. DNA. One especially for you: A platypus...

what is it with this person Confused
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03-02-2011, 04:55 PM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
If they bug you with the laws of thermodynamics , tell them these things :
1.The first law of thermodynamics disproves god.
2.The second law of thermodynamics refers only to closed systems , since the sun gives us a tan on a daily basis , ours is not a closed system.


(03-02-2011 04:36 PM)Speiraz Wrote:  what is it with this person Confused

Typical fundamentalist apologetics , nothing more !

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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03-02-2011, 05:16 PM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
They've got no idea what they're talking about. Every thing this person has brought up is an age-old creationist canard, long-since disproved. And I do mean every thing. I have seen all of these in use.

Where is this debate, if you don't mind my asking? Could be good for a laugh.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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03-02-2011, 05:51 PM
 
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Where is this debate, if you don't mind my asking? Could be good for a laugh.


Their Username: 812LJ
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?a...khQLt1vbWU
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04-02-2011, 01:57 AM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
(03-02-2011 03:50 PM)Speiraz Wrote:  it leads me to believe the creationist im talking to doesn't know what they are talking about

I haven't found a creationist who does know what they are talking about.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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04-02-2011, 04:38 AM
RE: Thermodynamics & teleonomy
Quote:1.The first law of thermodynamics disproves god.
I don't get how.
Quote:Super massive black holes in relation to dark energy & gravity. Sun & moon distance effectives. The water flux & protection of the sphere's. Earth's 23* tilt on perfect axis supporting life. The rhythm of your heartbeat. A red blood cell's makeup. DNA. One especially for you: A platypus...
Ummm... K...? Red blood cells use makeup?

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