They actually say this stuff?
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08-10-2011, 09:42 AM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote:Does atheism have "narratives?" (world history)

NO. Or maybe you could clarify what you thought with this exactly, but I do not see atheism making any kind of world history, or influencing it, there was always some religion influencing world history, not atheism.

Quote: Symbols?

NO. What symbols?

Hello Filox (say...your last name isn't Mulder, is it? just kidding), and thanks for the response.

How about a fish with legs?

See here for examples.


(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote: Sacred histories...? That give "meaning" (explanation for) to life? That explain the origin of life and the universe?

NO. If you think about some scientific books, that has nothing to do with atheism, because a lot of religious people write those books and think of them as scientific evidence, no matter that they say the opposite of what their religion says in the scriptures. Atheism does not have a Bible as such.


While the use of the word "sacred" might actually be taboo, for some atheists, the defense of science and scientific findings are regarded by some to be without controversy and above reproach. Much as the Christian views the Holy Bible, and most religionists view whatever "holy writ" is associated with their particular group.

Of course it should be kept in mind that devotion is a variable that will determine the zeal of the adherent.

(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote: And do these aspects of atheism drive the morality, ethics, laws (I left off "religious," though even in this thread it was suggested that Christians be rounded up and localized in one area...sounds suspiciously like past events in history to me), and...preferred lifestyle?

NO. We do not use scriptures to give us clues to morality, we use our simple logic and humanity to feel the morality and ethics of our actions, and the laws are given to all of us by the state in which we are living.

No-one said that scripture had anything to do with it. The reverse is true, in that opposition to biblical teaching is oftentimes the foundation for the establishment of an alternative moral stance and has in America had a direct impact on even the laws.

This cannot be denied.

(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote: So if we use even a secular source to define religion, we would have to compare the similarities of Secular Humanism to religion, and I myself would conclude that atheism, by definition, is a religion, though their is an absence of a particular deity, which many of us see as having been replaced by the individual him/herself, in being the one who establishes right and wrong from which all the above will "be derived."

You can debate about the philosophical meaning of the words "believe" and "religion" as much as you want, but the fact is that "atheism" is the opposite of religion, not another religion, as we don't have holly books, scriptures, symbols, rituals, even deities to believe in... Only thing we do have is moral and ethics, and that alone makes us human, not religious.

There is no need to debate the meaning of the words "believe" and "religion." Their meanings are not vague, and their definitions are readily accepted in most cultures.

While the perception of certain things such as "holy books, scriptures (which I don't actually remember crediting to atheists as an acceptable term), symbols, rituals, or deities" might be debatable, a rose, by any other name...is a rose.

Admitting morality and ethics does not change the fact that Atheism is foundational to particular morals and ethics.

Not only that, but it places man as the determiner of right and wrong, whereas Christians, and even most religionists (and this could, of course, be picked apart), look to the decree of their religious writings and God (or gods) to determine right or wrong. In another thread, this was exampled by one presenting the findings of science over that which is given in the creation account.

As far as simply being human, rather than religious, another look at the word religion will show that for the atheist, just as for the religionist, devotion to what they believe is not an option, but is required. For if one does not truly believe there is no God, they can no longer be deemed an atheist, even as if one does not truly believe there is a God, they can no longer be deemed a religionists.

(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  So, this is all nonsense you just wrote here.

As Bugs would say, "Nyaah...could be!" lol

(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  By the definition of the "religion", none of those things fit in the "atheism".

Sure they do.

(04-10-2011 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  Sorry, try again.

Smile

Saw this the other day, thought it was cool:

; )

Supposed to be a "wink," I guess.

S.T.
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08-10-2011, 01:49 PM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
Yes I hear these types of comments occasionally since I work at Wal-Mart and some of my family are very ignorant to topics outside of Christianity. It's just a lack of education on the subject that carries throughout America and as mentioned already it is echoed vastly by peoples congregations, preachers, and "news" sources.

As far as that Atheism being a religion debate... There is no thing unifying the terms of atheism. It is a non-system that has no universal connection or line of belief like domination of a religion do. Many people nowadays come to the thought scientifically but plenty have always seen it as no subject of reasoning; instead to some people it is just a universal reality.

The Darwin Fish or the fish with legs isn't an atheistic symbol. That is a evolution symbol often used to counter religious thoughts but evolution doesn't equal atheism. Many people understand evolution and believe in a deity.

The American Atheist symbol is a symbol of an organization. That isn't an universal unifier that means anything to atheists outside of a select group who are a aware of an apart of the organization. Just like the Thinking Atheist logo, it's just the organization and what defines it.

There is no foundations atheism, it's just other groups and other school of thoughts that are usually affirming of the atheist thought.
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11-10-2011, 04:33 PM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
Well Ranger to quote the FAQ: "Isn’t atheism a religion? Sure. And not smoking is a habit.":). Not believing in something is not a belief in itself. Stop the baitingTongue

As for the "atheist" symbols. I saw the american atheist guys (whatever they are called) symbol in their... As an atheist I do not want to be associated with those people. They might be atheists, but they still strike me as being very american (not in a positive way...). They seem to have a very hostile approach, saying believers are stupid etc., which isn’t going to accomplish anything except fueling the flame war, and they seem to have very strange priorities. (A symbol for atheism. gtfo... there must be more important stuff to discuss)
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12-10-2011, 05:34 AM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2011 06:20 AM by Filox.)
RE: They actually say this stuff?
OK, S.T., I see we will have more work to do around here... Let me continue.

First about the SYMBOL. First time I see this, I have no affiliation with any group of atheists, if you do not count this forum. Most of us don't. If you compare atheist symbols with religion ones, where every member of his church belongs to that church, uses it's symbols and laws, we are more free, some of us do, some don't use some kind of symbol. But we are not all "one atheist under leg-fish" symbol. We do not belong to any one organization, most of us do not belong to any organization, group or association. That is why you can not generalize and put some symbol as a general atheist symbol. There is no such thing. On the other hand, EVERY Christian has a cross as a symbol, there are no Christians who do not accept the cross as their symbol, or a fish without legs; Roman-Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, Presbyterian...

No, my name is not Mulder, whatever gave you that idea?

Smile

"SACRED" is not a taboo for me, I accept that there is a lot of sacred things on this planet to a lot of people. I also have some things that are sacred to me, only I do not associate it with God. What you are implying here is that we consider some scientific books and theories as sacred. Now hold on for a minute, The Bible was written for the Christians, people who believe in the Word of God, that is why the Bible is a sacred book to those people, Qur'an is the same thing, only for different people. Big Book of Science was NOT written for atheists, but for the whole planet, for theists and atheists of all sorts. It is NOT a sacred book for anyone, it is a book for learning new things, as opposed to the Bible, which is a religious text for people who believe it to be The Word of God. So you CAN NOT compare these two, they do not fit into same category. Even if someone does consider some scientific books as sacred, it not something you can generalize to ALL the atheists, because we are not affiliated with the same group, as opposed to Christians who ALL worship the Bible as The Word of God, and therefore the Bible is a sacred book for ALL those who call themselves Christians. For different affiliations of Christians you have different translations, to be more "made for them", and that does not apply to science, one book is made for everybody, we do not have different translations for different kinds of groups.

MORALITY is supposed to come from within us. Most religious people say that atheists are not moral people because we do not know the Word of God, and therefore we can not be moral. Now this is kinda stupid and retarded, if you follow some kind of laws (in this case moral laws) because of some kind of scripture and because you are scared of eternal torment, then you are not a moral person, you are a scared person. On the other hand if you reject all those "books of morality" and you still keep your morality, because you feel it is the right thing and not because you are afraid for your soul, then you are a truly moral person who knows the value of it. The aspects of atheism (whatever that is suppose to be) do not drive our morality, our morality comes from within us, that is who and what we are in nature, it is a part of our mind and body. Morality in Christianity comes form a Book and that Book (the Bible) is full of all sorts of WRONG morality, I do not wish to cherry-pick or quote the Bible, but I am sure you know a lot of quotes about slavery, women rights and similar...

On the part of ATHEISM/RELIGION I really can not answer, because I do not understand what you are trying to say. Atheism IS NOT a religion. You gave me some definitions for "A Religion", I have discarded all of those definitions and showed you that atheism does not fit into that definition, yet you still insist it does. Why do you do it, and how is it that you think this way, is beyond me. Let me try again. Atheism has no symbols, not in a religious sense. Those symbols that people use are not general and do not apply on every atheist, not like religious symbols do. We do not use any rituals. We have no sacred book or holly texts. We do not take science and claim it to be "our Bible", we simply love science because it gives us more knowledge. We use our logic and our minds to determine our morality. Actually, we do not determine our morality, it is something that comes naturally to us. All these things are the opposite of religions and how we define religions, so that brings us to conclusion that atheism is not a religion, but the opposite of the religion.

Bugs Bunny said it good.

In the end you just ignored everything I told you, didn't even try to understand it, and you simply said that atheism does fit into definition of the "religion". I really do not see how can you do that. Try to read everything again, think about it for a minute and then give me the answer to every of these claims. Convince me that I am wrong and that atheism is a religion by proving your point with more examples.

Wink

Yes, this is a "wink".

Peace.

P.S.

Sorry, didn't see the previous post. No I do not see the parallels. I do realize how can you see atheism as a religion, but it is because you still have the wrong view about us, you still have much to learn, young padawan.

I pretty strongly believe there is NO God at all. I am not agnostic, I am an atheist, full blown, 100%. Why, you might ask? It all started because of the Church, Christianity mostly, I was raised as a Roman-Catholic, but then I started to listen and read, to explore, so the first thing I noticed is that the Bible is the foundation of my religion, then I realized that if the foundation is not solid, the whole thing is not solid. The Bible is not solid for me because of the million of translations, everyone is different and we all know how the Bible was changed during history, specially in the year 325. A.D. So I started to feel betrayed, I felt that the priests were lying to me all the time and the worst part of it was that they knew about it. Every priest knows how the Bible was changed by MAN and for the MAN, how religions were changed to fit the king, the Church, the power-hungry. So insted of converting to some other religion, I decided that all the religions are like that and that is true. Also, I had my sorts of enlightenments and none of them had anything to do with any God, but with nature. And do not confuse me with some wicca or druid, when I say nature, I mean nature as something normal, that surrounds me and you. Do not think I did not question God, Church and my faith, I did, a lot, then I started to read about all sorts of things and little by little all the cubes began to come together and now I am here as an opened, active atheist. I believe that humans have the need to believe in the supernatural, I believe that the humans have problems with saying goodbye to our loved ones, I believe the humans have problems accepting death as something normal. So with this basic human psychology and human fears, we have invented religions and gods, it gives us comfort, it gives us hope (the afterlife), it makes us feel more important, it gives us laws to live by, it gives us morality (if we do not have it), it makes us better persons (if we are not already). At least it is what people think. But if you are aware of this, then the religion and god becomes obsolete and unnecessary, so my conclusion is that "they" have been lying to us and that there is no God, we are humans, we can do all this ourselves, we do not need a Creator to exist or to better ourselves. We have the Universe that created our planet Earth, we have the Sun to keep our planet warm, we have plants to give us oxygen, we have rain and rivers to drink, we have fish and deers to make food, we have nature to support us... I do not need God to explain my existence, I can accept that there are things we do not know yet, but in time we might learn then. Maybe I will not live that long, but it matters not, I am glad we are moving forward and I see the progress of human race.

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12-10-2011, 08:32 AM
 
RE: They actually say this stuff?
(21-09-2011 05:34 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(21-09-2011 05:18 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
Quote:1) Because the Declaration of Independence talks about "god" and the "creator".
Yes, and what of it? I said "god damn it" the other day when I stubbed my toe, and I am an atheist.

No theistic deity exists, a universal god is the only one left in doubt.
Actually my answer was that the US government is based on the Constitution, not on the Declaration of Independence. This person insisted that the US government is based on all the important documents by the founding fathers, so I encouraged him to go read the Treaty of Tripoli then, by John Adams, which says, and I quote,

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Hey SY,
I actually have a close friend who is as close to an apologist without self identifying as one try and take me to task on the Treaty of Tripoli. He stated that due to the fact its not FILED as an actually document in Tripoli, that its not a valid treaty and not legit.
Ignoring the fact that its a document agreed upon unanimously, signed and filed in the library of Congress....but the fact a copy cant be found cuz the pirates did not have a good filing system...makes it null and void!

The lengths they will go to make a point.

D
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12-10-2011, 07:36 PM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
Here is a history lesson for your christian friends. Thomas Paine's political philosophies were the founding thought process for Jefferson, Adams, etc. who were Diests like Paine and today would be Atheists with the known science.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason"

Sure, we're a christian nation. And I'm the pope. Now send be 10% of your income and I'll bless you.
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13-10-2011, 03:58 PM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
(21-09-2011 08:12 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  I recommend partition rather than civil war. Move all the believers to the bible belt and all the reasoners to the sin belt.

Whoa there Ke-mo sah-be. I live in the buckle of the bible belt, and I don't want any more of them moving here.Big Grin
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13-10-2011, 04:41 PM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
I live just by the ass-crack part of the sin belt, and we've got a lot of extra room if you want to move here.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-12-2011, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2011 04:12 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: They actually say this stuff?
1) Got into a pretty heated debate with another Christian about this. She was ignorant on history, and I had to point out that the founding fathers weren't Christians (a few were like Sam Adams) but were actually Deists. She just stuck her head in the sand and went "la la la".

2) This is just more of a classification than anything. People have difficulty with the concept of "nothing", so they want to classify it. But yeah, atheism isn't a religion.

3) lolwut. I have never heard this. I sure hope this isn't the new Christian science thing.

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14-12-2011, 11:00 AM
RE: They actually say this stuff?
(08-10-2011 09:42 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Admitting morality and ethics does not change the fact that Atheism is foundational to particular morals and ethics.

Not only that, but it places man as the determiner of right and wrong, whereas Christians, and even most religionists (and this could, of course, be picked apart), look to the decree of their religious writings and God (or gods) to determine right or wrong. In another thread, this was exampled by one presenting the findings of science over that which is given in the creation account.

As far as simply being human, rather than religious, another look at the word religion will show that for the atheist, just as for the religionist, devotion to what they believe is not an option, but is required. For if one does not truly believe there is no God, they can no longer be deemed an atheist, even as if one does not truly believe there is a God, they can no longer be deemed a religionists.

Your argument that atheism is a religion has the cart before the horse.
Atheists don't base their beliefs on some atheist writ or dogma,
we derive atheism from the lack of evidence for any gods and the enormous amount of evidence against their existence.

Atheism, unlike faith, is not a foundational belief, but a rational deduced conclusion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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