They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
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27-07-2017, 01:48 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
Here in the UK, if a person has a spray tan, we say they leave the Shroud of Turin in the bed sheets Laugh out load

Haven't MANY studies on this been done, and the age of the cloth itself just doesn't match the proposed date of the death of "jesus" ? I presume this to be the same as all those churches that reckon they have a piece of, or a nail from, the "holy cross" or something.

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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27-07-2017, 02:16 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(27-07-2017 01:48 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Haven't MANY studies on this been done, and the age of the cloth itself just doesn't match the proposed date of the death of "jesus" ? I presume this to be the same as all those churches that reckon they have a piece of, or a nail from, the "holy cross" or something.

There are something like 30 nails which are purported to be from the "holy cross". Its as if the Romans were intent on making sure the bastard didn't get away!

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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27-07-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
It was thought to be a fake even 500 years ago. John Calvin wrote of 1st century relics...

"Let us begin with Jesus Christ, about whose blood there have been fierce disputations; for many maintained that he had no blood except of a miraculous kind; nevertheless the natural blood is exhibited in more than a hundred places. They show at Rochelle a few drops of it, which, as they say, was collected by Nicodemus in his glove. In some places they have phials full of it, as, for instance, at Mantua and elsewhere; in other parts they have cups filled with it, as in the Church of St Eustache at Rome.

Now let us consider how many relics of the true [sic ] cross there are in the world. An account of those merely with which I am acquainted would fill a whole volume, for there is not a church, from a cathedral to the most miserable abbey or parish church, that does not contain a piece. Large splinters of it are preserved in various places, as for instance in the Holy Chapel at Paris, whilst at Rome they show a crucifix of considerable size made entirely, they say, from this wood. In short, if we were to collect all these pieces of the true cross exhibited in various parts, they would form a whole ship’s cargo.

A third part of the crown of Thorns is preserved at the Holy Chapel at Paris, three thorns at the Church of the Holy Cross, and a number of them at St Eustache in the same city; there are a good many of the thorns at Sienna, one at Yicenza, four at Bourges, three at Besangon, three at Port Royal, and I do not know how many at Salvatierra in Spain, two at St James of Compostella, three at Albi, and one at least in the following places—Toulouse, Macon, Charroux in Poitiers; at Cleri, St Flour, St Maximira in Provence, in the abbey of La Salle at St Martin of Noyon, etc."

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-07-2017, 06:50 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(26-07-2017 07:35 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...50621.html

How many times are they going to bring up the same shit?

> This claim is, of course, bunk since there is no blood on the Shroud: all the forensic tests specific for blood have failed (although some investigators unrigorously concluded that blood was present after conducting numerous forensic tests for iron, protein, albumin, etc., which came up positive because these materials are indeed on the Shroud in the form of tempera paint).

> "Blind" microscopic analyses show significant traces of paint pigment on image areas, thus proving the pigment red ocher was a component of the image. The "blood" was actually tempera paint. Real blood does not contain red ochre, vermilion, and alizarin red pigments.

> Subsequently, the distinguished microanalyst Walter McCrone identified the "blood" as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint and concluded that the entire image had been painted.

> Until these new "findings" pass the scrutiny of peer review in a legitimate science journal, they should be regarded as just another example of Shroud proponents grasping at straws. Consider
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27-07-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
theory as to why people would need that shroud. This site isn't really a place for the middle of the roader. But the middle's notions should be put out there for the lurkers.

To the middle of road thinker, basically us normal crazies in the middle, literally Died, woke up, and flew away is not rational . After that, things like this shroud are small potatoes.

Literal people are the problem. They can't, for a brain reasons, understand things like metaphorical or notions like, we ,all, have to be hypocrites to a point. One can see a person getting frustrated very easily when they they think their actions must match exactly everything they say exactly. Their brains will make anything real that it needs to be real. Hobo

The shroud thing shows a brain acting just like a child's brain. Most children can operate in the day to day runnings of a life but there are disconnects. We would not question a child's disconnect in an emotional 'anti-child" rant. we wouldn't call them vile, disgusting, delusional fools. we would help them. Other literal people, or child brains, would blow up and attack. But we don't have to be that way.

Dealing with a broken brain, lets say one that stopped growing in it's early teens (causes vary: addiction, abuse, mental) as if it it is a normal brain is the act same thing as treating a person that never fixed a broken leg as if they had two good legs. its silliness.

For the middle of the roaders, that being not anti-religion or religious, this shroud thing is a perfect example of treating brains as if they were child', early teen, late teen, 20's, and older to help make sense of the claim and ourselves. When talking to a brain in these categories one can see the literal things they could use (strings) to make sense of the world around them. Just because they are 35 years old by the calendar doesn't make their brain state such.

Fundamentalist-think is a brain state. Its not a belief. The opposite is milli mentalist think. These brain states act just like 13-15 year old brains. If you ever were in a room with this age group you would see it. The rational, middle of the roader, understands that this is just a broad grouping and not specific to the individual.

The main problem is application of this notion. I hate to say it, but the 'wink' comes into play. when people understand our place in this ecosystem, and the interactions that define that system, we try and teach the literal people (bible all true or bible only false types). But that can't be done in a day or even a single generation. It takes time.

The only way I see to make that transition time faster is going medieval. IE: wipe out the enemy and take its people. I just don't think I could go that route myself.

Conclusion. Treat people like "personality traits" and you will understand how and why they express a belief statement. You will be able to make better predictions and deal with people better. Certain literal thinking personality types (mixed with personality things like: blue, orange, yellow, and green) have to have "belief statements" as more practical than "knowledge statements" to support their 1/2 true claim. Yes

How do we know who is a fundy/milli mentalist thinker. Watch how people react to situations to clue you in. Brain state will express beliefs. Beliefs can expose brain states. But the simple fact is "brain state" defines who you are at any given moment. "mindfulness" addresses this notion.

That was a lot. but we have to start somewhere. the only question is "where do you want to be on the human boob stick?" The ends? Weeping

forget the hate,
address the claims.
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27-07-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(26-07-2017 07:35 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...50621.html

How many times are they going to bring up the same shit?

Depends on how many times they would need to hear it to convince themselves. Faithful seems strangely needy for evidence.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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27-07-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
This whole thing is stupid!

There is a letter sent to Pope Clement VII by Pierre d'Arcis, Bishop of Troyes, in 1389. in which the forger ADMITS that he painted the dmaned thing. The Vatican I think still has the letter. Here's part of the letter:

"The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Some time since in this diocese of Troyes, the dean of a certain collegiate church . . . falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted, upon which by a clever sleight of hand was depicted the twofold image of one man, that is to say, the back and the front, he falsely declaring and pretending that this was the actual shroud in which our Savior Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb.''

The letter goes on to say that "pretended miracles" were staged:

''Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination'' - an earlier bishop of Troyes -''discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it.''

The Vatican KNOWS it's a fraud but they make millions off of believers who think it's real. It's a cash cow for them.

GEESH! Facepalm

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-07-2017, 06:42 PM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(27-07-2017 09:06 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This whole thing is stupid!

There is a letter sent to Pope Clement VII by Pierre d'Arcis, Bishop of Troyes, in 1389. in which the forger ADMITS that he painted the dmaned thing. The Vatican I think still has the letter. Here's part of the letter:

"The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Some time since in this diocese of Troyes, the dean of a certain collegiate church . . . falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted, upon which by a clever sleight of hand was depicted the twofold image of one man, that is to say, the back and the front, he falsely declaring and pretending that this was the actual shroud in which our Savior Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb.''

The letter goes on to say that "pretended miracles" were staged:

''Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination'' - an earlier bishop of Troyes -''discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it.''

The Vatican KNOWS it's a fraud but they make millions off of believers who think it's real. It's a cash cow for them.

GEESH! Facepalm
Quite so, here's a link about it.

This is just the intersection of two things: believer's desire for a thing to be true, and the Church's motivation to allow people to believe as it supports the mystique surrounding their claim to be the preserver and defender of an historic faith with an unbroken chain of attestation back to the time of Christ. As the link points out, the church has never officially endorsed the Shroud as genuine, but hasn't gone out of its way to disabuse anyone of the notion either.
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28-07-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(27-07-2017 07:44 AM)AB517 Wrote:  theory as to why people would need that shroud. This site isn't really a place for the middle of the roader. But the middle's notions should be put out there for the lurkers...

Fundamentalist-think is a brain state. Its not a belief. The opposite is milli mentalist think...

Brain state will express beliefs. Beliefs can expose brain states. But the simple fact is "brain state" defines who you are at any given moment. "mindfulness" addresses this notion...

[snip]

...forget the hate,
address the claims.

I'm afraid I have not the foggiest notion of what you're talking about with these comments. Huh

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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28-07-2017, 08:34 AM
RE: They can't leave the Shroud of Turin alone can they?
(28-07-2017 07:59 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 07:44 AM)AB517 Wrote:  theory as to why people would need that shroud. This site isn't really a place for the middle of the roader. But the middle's notions should be put out there for the lurkers...

Fundamentalist-think is a brain state. Its not a belief. The opposite is milli mentalist think...

Brain state will express beliefs. Beliefs can expose brain states. But the simple fact is "brain state" defines who you are at any given moment. "mindfulness" addresses this notion...

[snip]

...forget the hate,
address the claims.

I'm afraid I have not the foggiest notion of what you're talking about with these comments. Huh
Yeah I read this and was a bit lost after a while. Bit of a word salad there.

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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