Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-12-2013, 06:46 AM
Brick Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
Hi, friends ..

I have heard some interesting things lately from Christians defending a couple of positions. These positions are not altogether convincing, (to me, anyway) although have prompted me to want to conduct further research on the particular subject(s). It would be interesting to have a discussion about these particular arguments, and any other Christian perspectives/arguments above and beyond the usual ..

First, I was having a discussion with a Christian (at my local university) about whether or not the United States was founded as a Christian nation. She proceeded with an argument which I have never heard before. She scoffed at the notion that the Founding Fathers were either deistic, or were ambivalent regarding the Christian God .. She proceeded to argue that there were fifty-five (if I remember correctly, from what she had told me. I can't remember the exact number that she used) Founding Fathers, and that only a few of these men were deists. Her implication was this: Every individual signer of the Declaration of Independence is considered to be a Founding Father (and the majority of the men were Christian). What? I have NEVER heard this before .. I mean, it has always been my understanding that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Paine (among a few others, but nowhere near fifty-five) were known as the Founding Fathers. However, I have found a source that indicates that "some historians" designate the Founding Fathers as encompassing a much larger group (which would include the signers). By the way .. Which historians? Other sources confirm everything that I have come to understand at the present. I haven't done further research yet, but I must admit .. I am a little confused at this point. Huh Has anyone else heard this argument before?

Second, I was having a discussion with another Christian about abortion. Personally, I have not researched the issue enough to formulate an educated position on the issue as of yet, but my Christian friend told me something that, I must admit, has me thinking. She said something to the effect of, "When a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide." Does the stage of the baby's development make a difference in this case? I'm just asking .. I don't know. She continued to say, "So, how could abortion not be considered murder?" I have NEVER thought about it like this before. Has anyone else heard this argument before?

I just thought these arguments are interesting, mainly because I have never heard either one before. I am interested in hearing some other perspectives and viewpoints. Does anybody have any other interesting arguments that they've never heard before?

The sources that I am including are just a couple of Wikipedia pages, and I do understand that I need more "in depth" sources on which to base my further research. I just checked these out quickly, and it sparked my curiosity as to the possibility of her "signers being Founding Fathers" claim having some validity.

Thank you!

Scott.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fa...ted_States
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 08:21 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
As for most of the post - um - No. But that "double homicide" thing raised an important question. I do support abortion. And the only thing I can fathom is that the murder of a pregnant woman insinuates that she intended to have the child(?). Could not a stipulation be how far along she was?
Curious thing tho......... glad you raised that as a point of question.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 08:34 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
(04-12-2013 06:46 AM)SMBAtheistOregon Wrote:  Hi, friends ..

I have heard some interesting things lately from Christians defending a couple of positions. These positions are not altogether convincing, (to me, anyway) although have prompted me to want to conduct further research on the particular subject(s). It would be interesting to have a discussion about these particular arguments, and any other Christian perspectives/arguments above and beyond the usual ..

First, I was having a discussion with a Christian (at my local university) about whether or not the United States was founded as a Christian nation. She proceeded with an argument which I have never heard before. She scoffed at the notion that the Founding Fathers were either deistic, or were ambivalent regarding the Christian God .. She proceeded to argue that there were fifty-five (if I remember correctly, from what she had told me. I can't remember the exact number that she used) Founding Fathers, and that only a few of these men were deists. Her implication was this: Every individual signer of the Declaration of Independence is considered to be a Founding Father (and the majority of the men were Christian). What? I have NEVER heard this before .. I mean, it has always been my understanding that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Paine (among a few others, but nowhere near fifty-five) were known as the Founding Fathers. However, I have found a source that indicates that "some historians" designate the Founding Fathers as encompassing a much larger group (which would include the signers). By the way .. Which historians? Other sources confirm everything that I have come to understand at the present. I haven't done further research yet, but I must admit .. I am a little confused at this point. Huh Has anyone else heard this argument before?

Second, I was having a discussion with another Christian about abortion. Personally, I have not researched the issue enough to formulate an educated position on the issue as of yet, but my Christian friend told me something that, I must admit, has me thinking. She said something to the effect of, "When a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide." Does the stage of the baby's development make a difference in this case? I'm just asking .. I don't know. She continued to say, "So, how could abortion not be considered murder?" I have NEVER thought about it like this before. Has anyone else heard this argument before?

I just thought these arguments are interesting, mainly because I have never heard either one before. I am interested in hearing some other perspectives and viewpoints. Does anybody have any other interesting arguments that they've never heard before?

The sources that I am including are just a couple of Wikipedia pages, and I do understand that I need more "in depth" sources on which to base my further research. I just checked these out quickly, and it sparked my curiosity as to the possibility of her "signers being Founding Fathers" claim having some validity.

Thank you!

Scott.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fa...ted_States
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Quote:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Case closed on the founded as a christian nation bullshit. It is revisionist history and not indicative of the time. The United States were founded as a Secular Government first and foremost the individual beliefs of the founders had little to do with it because they intentionally made them separate. It is only a select group of crazies that push that angle anyway everyone else is well aware of this fact.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
04-12-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
(04-12-2013 08:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 06:46 AM)SMBAtheistOregon Wrote:  Hi, friends ..

I have heard some interesting things lately from Christians defending a couple of positions. These positions are not altogether convincing, (to me, anyway) although have prompted me to want to conduct further research on the particular subject(s). It would be interesting to have a discussion about these particular arguments, and any other Christian perspectives/arguments above and beyond the usual ..

First, I was having a discussion with a Christian (at my local university) about whether or not the United States was founded as a Christian nation. She proceeded with an argument which I have never heard before. She scoffed at the notion that the Founding Fathers were either deistic, or were ambivalent regarding the Christian God .. She proceeded to argue that there were fifty-five (if I remember correctly, from what she had told me. I can't remember the exact number that she used) Founding Fathers, and that only a few of these men were deists. Her implication was this: Every individual signer of the Declaration of Independence is considered to be a Founding Father (and the majority of the men were Christian). What? I have NEVER heard this before .. I mean, it has always been my understanding that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Paine (among a few others, but nowhere near fifty-five) were known as the Founding Fathers. However, I have found a source that indicates that "some historians" designate the Founding Fathers as encompassing a much larger group (which would include the signers). By the way .. Which historians? Other sources confirm everything that I have come to understand at the present. I haven't done further research yet, but I must admit .. I am a little confused at this point. Huh Has anyone else heard this argument before?

Second, I was having a discussion with another Christian about abortion. Personally, I have not researched the issue enough to formulate an educated position on the issue as of yet, but my Christian friend told me something that, I must admit, has me thinking. She said something to the effect of, "When a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide." Does the stage of the baby's development make a difference in this case? I'm just asking .. I don't know. She continued to say, "So, how could abortion not be considered murder?" I have NEVER thought about it like this before. Has anyone else heard this argument before?

I just thought these arguments are interesting, mainly because I have never heard either one before. I am interested in hearing some other perspectives and viewpoints. Does anybody have any other interesting arguments that they've never heard before?

The sources that I am including are just a couple of Wikipedia pages, and I do understand that I need more "in depth" sources on which to base my further research. I just checked these out quickly, and it sparked my curiosity as to the possibility of her "signers being Founding Fathers" claim having some validity.

Thank you!

Scott.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fa...ted_States
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Quote:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Case closed on the founded as a christian nation bullshit. It is revisionist history and not indicative of the time. The United States were founded as a Secular Government first and foremost the individual beliefs of the founders had little to do with it because they intentionally made them separate. It is only a select group of crazies that push that angle anyway everyone else is well aware of this fact.

[Image: fdbda731.jpg]

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like WitchSabrina's post
04-12-2013, 08:46 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
(04-12-2013 08:38 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 08:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli


Case closed on the founded as a christian nation bullshit. It is revisionist history and not indicative of the time. The United States were founded as a Secular Government first and foremost the individual beliefs of the founders had little to do with it because they intentionally made them separate. It is only a select group of crazies that push that angle anyway everyone else is well aware of this fact.

[Image: fdbda731.jpg]

We just want our country back, from that big mean n*****

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Revenant77x's post
04-12-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
I might be wrong- but I was under the impression of the killing of pregnant woman counting as 1 or 2 murders depends on where you live. In the US, some states may have defined it, others may not have.

Something about needing a birth certificate before you can have a death certificate.


but I might be wrong….


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
(04-12-2013 08:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 06:46 AM)SMBAtheistOregon Wrote:  Hi, friends ..

I have heard some interesting things lately from Christians defending a couple of positions. These positions are not altogether convincing, (to me, anyway) although have prompted me to want to conduct further research on the particular subject(s). It would be interesting to have a discussion about these particular arguments, and any other Christian perspectives/arguments above and beyond the usual ..

First, I was having a discussion with a Christian (at my local university) about whether or not the United States was founded as a Christian nation. She proceeded with an argument which I have never heard before. She scoffed at the notion that the Founding Fathers were either deistic, or were ambivalent regarding the Christian God .. She proceeded to argue that there were fifty-five (if I remember correctly, from what she had told me. I can't remember the exact number that she used) Founding Fathers, and that only a few of these men were deists. Her implication was this: Every individual signer of the Declaration of Independence is considered to be a Founding Father (and the majority of the men were Christian). What? I have NEVER heard this before .. I mean, it has always been my understanding that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Paine (among a few others, but nowhere near fifty-five) were known as the Founding Fathers. However, I have found a source that indicates that "some historians" designate the Founding Fathers as encompassing a much larger group (which would include the signers). By the way .. Which historians? Other sources confirm everything that I have come to understand at the present. I haven't done further research yet, but I must admit .. I am a little confused at this point. Huh Has anyone else heard this argument before?

Second, I was having a discussion with another Christian about abortion. Personally, I have not researched the issue enough to formulate an educated position on the issue as of yet, but my Christian friend told me something that, I must admit, has me thinking. She said something to the effect of, "When a pregnant woman is murdered, it is considered a double homicide." Does the stage of the baby's development make a difference in this case? I'm just asking .. I don't know. She continued to say, "So, how could abortion not be considered murder?" I have NEVER thought about it like this before. Has anyone else heard this argument before?

I just thought these arguments are interesting, mainly because I have never heard either one before. I am interested in hearing some other perspectives and viewpoints. Does anybody have any other interesting arguments that they've never heard before?

The sources that I am including are just a couple of Wikipedia pages, and I do understand that I need more "in depth" sources on which to base my further research. I just checked these out quickly, and it sparked my curiosity as to the possibility of her "signers being Founding Fathers" claim having some validity.

Thank you!

Scott.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fa...ted_States
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Quote:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Case closed on the founded as a christian nation bullshit. It is revisionist history and not indicative of the time. The United States were founded as a Secular Government first and foremost the individual beliefs of the founders had little to do with it because they intentionally made them separate. It is only a select group of crazies that push that angle anyway everyone else is well aware of this fact.

You should have specified the author of your quote. Was it T. Jefferson? And was it not the result of the Barbary wars? I don't believe it was in response to a question put to a "Founding Father" as to whether or not the new nation was founded based on Christianity.
It is unlikely that the case is closed as long as the arguments keep cropping up. Since most history is written by "the winners", then there will always be "revisionist" history. You assert the US was (were?) founded "as a secular government". Proof??
You also assert that "a select group of crazies" push and angle (Christian founded nation?) and that "everyone else" is well aware of "this fact".
Too many assertions without proof. Sounds like statements a "believer" would make.

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
(04-12-2013 09:30 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  You also assert that "a select group of crazies" push and angle (Christian founded nation?) and that "everyone else" is well aware of "this fact".
Too many assertions without proof. Sounds like statements a "believer" would make.


Oh I dunno. I'd defend those assertions. LOL Unless you live under a rock or are hard-core republican you've seen and heard from "The Crazies" in this county ever since (and before really) Obama was elected.

Yeah -- probably not the best idea to generalize "the Crazies" - -but I sure understand what is meant.
LOL


just sayin............

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
On the topic of whether we were founded as a Christian nation, there's only one place you need to look. There's this little document the founding fathers wrote. In it, there's this part that says something along the lines of

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

That's the very FIRST thing they put in the Bill of Rights. Not an afterthought, not a footnote. The first damned thing. Regardless of the religious affiliation of any of them, they had the wisdom to make sure that front and center, was a declaration that this is a secular government.



As for the abortion topic. A woman's body and everything that is in it is belongs to her. If you murder a pregnant woman, you are killing her and preventing a child from being born, contrary to the mother's wishes. However, if a woman chooses to end her own pregnancy, she has a right to because that fetus is part of her body.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes itsnotmeitsyou's post
04-12-2013, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 03:18 PM by kim.)
RE: Things that make me go, "Hmmmm" ..
The Unborn Victims of Violence Act recognizes a child in utero as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence.

It is rare to enact this and the act itself must fit certain criteria... I think involving intent to kill both woman victim and unborn victim - they would assume separate charges. I think criteria may also involve viability of the prenatal victim.

Like that Laci Peterson woman's murder - her husband was convicted of murder in the first degree for her death, and in the second degree for the death of their prenatal son. She was nearly 8 months pregnant - the child could have survived had cesarian been performed.
***

There were a lot of people who signed the Declaration of Independence - 56 delegates to the Continental Congress. Jefferson composed the original draft and congress edited and produced the final version. The declaration itself asserts certain natural and legal rights - only rarely (3 times) is any sort of divinity mentioned .... the most famous one:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If one were so inclined to have a creator, it might simply be one's own personal creator and not any particularly prescribed or designated creator. The phrase is entirely deistic in nature.

So, SMBAO - maybe your friend doesn't understand what a deist or deism is...?

deism |ˈdēizəm|
noun
belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.
ORIGIN late 17th cent.: from Latin deus ‘god’ + -ism .

All that aside, the Declaration is not a philosophical essay about natural rights rather, it is a legal document. It was an indictment against King George for violating the constitutional rights of the colonists.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: