Thirty Meter Telescope
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09-04-2015, 06:22 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
How can you honour a mountain more than by erecting a monument that allows to reach out to the universe from there? I guess if one could manage it that the indigenous people feel more like a part of this endeavour as opposed to outsiders, they'd appreciate that more.

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09-04-2015, 06:23 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
Since when do we find it necessary to acknowledge and abide by somebody's "sacred ground" nonsense???

The Dakota Indians considered the Black Hills sacred ground - and it didn't stop a bunch of people from making a bigassed sculpture of a bunch of pasty white european types out of one of the mountaintops...... (Mt Rushmore)...

If that's OK, anything goes.

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09-04-2015, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2015 08:29 AM by Alex K.)
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(09-04-2015 06:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Since when do we find it necessary to acknowledge and abide by somebody's "sacred ground" nonsense???

It's at least worth a discussion methinks. Having the locals on board can't hurt. Also it seems to be some kind of recognition that the transfer of ownership of these lands from first nations to the current US maybe left something to be desired.

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09-04-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(09-04-2015 06:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Since when do we find it necessary to acknowledge and abide by somebody's "sacred ground" nonsense???

I don't think we can afford to think like that. There is already a great deal of friction in Hawaii between natives and non-natives over outsiders taking over their islands. You have to respect everybody whether you agree with their beliefs or not. I'm not necessarily saying we should back down to them but we can't simply dismiss them as beneath our consideration.
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09-04-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
There's a rather sad condition attached to the observatories built in Chile... Which states that they must be demolished after professional observing ceases.

They have no idea what they are going to lose.

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09-05-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
I don't think those of you that commented that you don't see anything wrong with the TMT telescope being built on Mauna Kea realize the implications of what's going not only for the state of Hawaii but for the culture of Native Hawaiian people. It is equivalent if scientists decided to mow over your local church, graves where your grandparents are buried, or an area of your house where you consider is sacred.

The existing telescopes that are on Mauna Kea are in defiance of the sacred land and are polluting the water at Lake Waiau, the lake that is near the top of Mauna Kea. To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven. To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs. Therefore for Native Hawaiian people, they believe that there is no need for a telescope to look into deep space and to try to find other universes because they can already see & travel to other universes without any science. If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.
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09-05-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(09-05-2015 12:42 PM)MikeBam Wrote:  I don't think those of you that commented that you don't see anything wrong with the TMT telescope being built on Mauna Kea realize the implications of what's going not only for the state of Hawaii but for the culture of Native Hawaiian people. It is equivalent if scientists decided to mow over your local church, graves where your grandparents are buried, or an area of your house where you consider is sacred.

The existing telescopes that are on Mauna Kea are in defiance of the sacred land and are polluting the water at Lake Waiau, the lake that is near the top of Mauna Kea. To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven. To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs. Therefore for Native Hawaiian people, they believe that there is no need for a telescope to look into deep space and to try to find other universes because they can already see & travel to other universes without any science. If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.

I completely agree. We, free thinkers in science, should not forget the importance of treating our fellow man with respect. Religions are notorious for imposing their views and practices on others. We should never become the equivalent of religions. Integrity and understanding are the foundations of science.
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09-05-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(09-05-2015 12:42 PM)MikeBam Wrote:  I don't think those of you that commented that you don't see anything wrong with the TMT telescope being built on Mauna Kea realize the implications of what's going not only for the state of Hawaii but for the culture of Native Hawaiian people. It is equivalent if scientists decided to mow over your local church, graves where your grandparents are buried, or an area of your house where you consider is sacred.

No, it's not like those things.

Quote:The existing telescopes that are on Mauna Kea are in defiance of the sacred land and are polluting the water at Lake Waiau, the lake that is near the top of Mauna Kea.

Citation required.

Quote:To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

There are already telescopes there. Another one angers them because ... ?

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Quote:Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven. To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs. Therefore for Native Hawaiian people, they believe that there is no need for a telescope to look into deep space and to try to find other universes because they can already see & travel to other universes without any science. If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.

There are no portals. I do not respect silly ideas.

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09-05-2015, 10:10 PM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
Quote: What are you folks thinking about this?


I'm sick of primitive shits bitching about things because of their superstitions.

I bet if someone wanted to put up a casino they wouldn't have such a problem.

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10-05-2015, 07:36 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(09-05-2015 12:42 PM)MikeBam Wrote:  I don't think those of you that commented that you don't see anything wrong with the TMT telescope being built on Mauna Kea realize the implications of what's going not only for the state of Hawaii but for the culture of Native Hawaiian people. It is equivalent if scientists decided to mow over your local church, graves where your grandparents are buried, or an area of your house where you consider is sacred.

Since I don't have any sacred areas in my house and don't have any issues with re-purposing cemeteries and churches for something actually useful, your point falls rather flat.

Quote:The existing telescopes that are on Mauna Kea are in defiance of the sacred land

The phrase "sacred land" is not meaningful to me. I do see value in maintaining culturally/historically important sites for future reference and research. It is important to retain knowledge of the past in order to understand ourselves but "sacred" is not a criteria that I consider important in and of itself.

Quote:and are polluting the water at Lake Waiau, the lake that is near the top of Mauna Kea.

If true, that is a salient point.

Quote:To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

As I said, I understand the importance of preserving history but that doesn't translate to respecting ancestors. Many of our ancestors do not deserve respect.

Quote:Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven. To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs.

I respect knowledge, learning, and understanding. I do not respect unevidenced supernatural claims. Beliefs do not automatically deserve respect.

Quote:Therefore for Native Hawaiian people, they believe that there is no need for a telescope to look into deep space and to try to find other universes because they can already see & travel to other universes without any science. If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.

Then I am very glad that I am not spiritual, at least not in that sense. When they can demonstrate that they obtain actual factual data through this process, or even that something different occurs at the proposed site than can happen anywhere else, I will respect it.

I have not position on the building of the telescope as I don't have enough information about the expected benefits and environmental or historical costs. I could at this point be swayed either way with the proper evidence. If the best argument against it is that some people consider the mountaintop sacred then I don't see that that carries any weight.

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