Thirty Meter Telescope
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11-05-2015, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2015 08:05 AM by Chas.)
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(10-05-2015 07:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:and are polluting the water at Lake Waiau, the lake that is near the top of Mauna Kea.

If true, that is a salient point.

Without evidence, it is not salient - it is bullshit.

He has yet to provide a citation, so that claim can be ignored..

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-05-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(11-05-2015 08:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-05-2015 07:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If true, that is a salient point.

Without evidence, it is not salient - it is bullshit.

He has yet to provide a citation, so that claim can be ignored..

Which is why I qualified it with "if true". I was trying to throw him a crumb to show the difference between a claim that might possibly involve some actual consequences and the rest of the claims which were pure woo.

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11-05-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
If the locals don't want it, for whatever reason, then it shouldn't be built there. We'll simply have to find another place for it.

(09-05-2015 12:42 PM)MikeBam Wrote:  To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

Other people from other cultures honor their forebears in other ways.

Quote:Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven.

Garden-variety woo. [Image: 2ibp0m1_th.jpg]

Quote:To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs.

Nonsense. Disbelief is disagreement. It is not an insult or disrespect to not share someone's religious views. Disagreement doesn't disparage a person or culture, it only signifies that one doesn't share their views.

On the other hand, I'll happily call those beliefs about portals "nonsense", and whether or not that is offensive is not my problem.

Quote:If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.

Pretty sure there are plenty more ways to be spiritual than that.
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11-05-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(11-05-2015 09:51 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If the locals don't want it, for whatever reason, then it shouldn't be built there. We'll simply have to find another place for it.

(09-05-2015 12:42 PM)MikeBam Wrote:  To build a bigger TMT on top of Mauna Kea angers local Native Hawaiian people because it shows a disrespect to not only to their culture, but to the ancestors that came before us in Hawaii. If you know anything about respecting your elders and preserving a culture, you would understand this.

Other people from other cultures honor their forebears in other ways.

Quote:Spiritually, many Native Hawaiians believe that there is a portal that lies above Mauna Kea where spirits can ascend into the heavens. It is one of many portals in the Hawaiian islands, but it is important because it is one of the biggest portals to the spiritual heaven.

Garden-variety woo. [Image: 2ibp0m1_th.jpg]

Quote:To disbelieve this in the name of science is also a disrespect to Native Hawaiian people, their Hawaiian culture and their beliefs.

Nonsense. Disbelief is disagreement. It is not an insult or disrespect to not share someone's religious views. Disagreement doesn't disparage a person or culture, it only signifies that one doesn't share their views.

On the other hand, I'll happily call those beliefs about portals "nonsense", and whether or not that is offensive is not my problem.

Quote:If you are a spiritual person, you would agree with this statement.

Pretty sure there are plenty more ways to be spiritual than that.

Yeah - I was merely reasserting the need for a citation which he has yet to provide.

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13-05-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
The religious arguments aren't strong as people can do their religion anywhere and this isn't an exclusively and long established "holy site" anyway. Any of us can claim anything is "sacred to us" for all sorts of reasons, why not telescopes? The conservation and water arguments seem to be undermined by the telescopes already in situ and those arguments aren't at the fore, nationalistic or tribal claims and religious ones are. It sounds like nimbyism, essentially - "Great idea, but not here coz I'm superstitious and have too much time on my hands". A pity people can't be as enthusiastic about science as they are about superstitions.
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15-05-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
The only argument against the TMT that makes any sense is that we stole Hawai'i from the indigenous population in the first place. I've got no quarrel with the proposition that we should give it back to them. If you wanted to build a telescope in my back yard, I'd say, hell yes, on condition that once a week, for 15 minutes, I get to come look through it and you'd show me cool stuff. Sort of like having my own private APOD. I'll bet if we gave the islands back to the descendants of their original occupants, and then offered to pay them rent, they'd welcome us with open arms. Want to build a resort on someone else's land? Negotiate rent on the land. Want to build a telescope? Negotiate rent on the land.

All this "sacred land" crap is as much bullshit as the magic man in the sky who loves you so much he'll torture you forever if you believe the wrong thing about him.

As for a thirty-meter telescope, that's one honkin' big telescope! Sounds pretty cool to me. I'd pay to go there and look through it. Will it even have an eyepiece, or will it all be just digital?

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15-05-2015, 07:51 AM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(15-05-2015 06:50 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  The only argument against the TMT that makes any sense is that we stole Hawai'i from the indigenous population in the first place. I've got no quarrel with the proposition that we should give it back to them.

Then you should have no problem with giving the rest of the U.S. back to the indigenous people. Drinking Beverage

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15-05-2015, 05:36 PM
RE: Thirty Meter Telescope
(15-05-2015 07:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 06:50 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  The only argument against the TMT that makes any sense is that we stole Hawai'i from the indigenous population in the first place. I've got no quarrel with the proposition that we should give it back to them.

Then you should have no problem with giving the rest of the U.S. back to the indigenous people. Drinking Beverage

Nope. No problem at all.

I'm just saying it's the only legitimate argument against the telescope. I think giving the rest of the continent back maybe deserves its own thread.

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