This is insanity
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29-10-2015, 10:40 AM
RE: This is insanity
OK is a subjective standard. There is a federal law that says employers have to make reasonable accommodations for religious observance. Beyond That, you're an at will employee and they can impose any dress code they wish as long as its not discriminatory.

Is that ok? Beats me. My employer makes me wear pants to work, which I find very constricting. But, they pay for my time so they can dictate how I look when I'm on their premise or representing them. My choices are wear pants or work for myself and set up a utopian pantless environment.

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29-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 10:40 AM)BnW Wrote:  OK is a subjective standard. There is a federal law that says employers have to make reasonable accommodations for religious observance. Beyond That, you're an at will employee and they can impose any dress code they wish as long as its not discriminatory.

Is that ok? Beats me. My employer makes me wear pants to work, which I find very constricting. But, they pay for my time so they can dictate how I look when I'm on their premise or representing them. My choices are wear pants or work for myself and set up a utopian pantless environment.

It would seem to me that some laws conflict. If an employer has to make accommodations for religious observances, how far does that extend?

For example, we know in Oregon that the bakery can't set a policy to not make a cake for a gay wedding. But can the individual employees make religious exemption claim to not make the cake? Just as the delivery drivers did not want to deliver alcohol. Could the bakery employee say, "sorry, pick someone else to make the cake, it goes against my beliefs." Or perhaps this religious accommodation could extend to the owner himself? Even though he owns the place, as a worker, couldn't he say I just can't do it? It's not a policy not to do wedding cakes for gay couples, he just can't do it himself due to religious observance, and unfortunately there is nobody else he can swap jobs with so pick a new bakery?

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29-10-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 10:23 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 10:10 AM)BnW Wrote:  The key is how reasonable the request is. In the 80s there was a case where firemen asked for exceptions to the no beard rule. The rule was a safety issue about masks fitting properly. The city argued that beards could result in smoke inhalation and put the lives of the individual and their colleagues in danger.

Since the no beards rule was not arbitrary, but was necessary to do the job, the court held the city and fire department could enforce the no beard rule.

But do you think its OK for a company, or let's say a job that doesn't require a fitted mask to prevent smoke inhalation to let one group of people grow a beard, but not another group? Because I can tell you right now, if I came to work with a beard I would get written up and sent home, and fired if I did it a second time. Yet my coworker, who is Jewish gets to grow a beard. It just doesn't sit right with me.

what line of work?

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29-10-2015, 11:33 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 11:37 AM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 11:29 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 10:23 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  But do you think its OK for a company, or let's say a job that doesn't require a fitted mask to prevent smoke inhalation to let one group of people grow a beard, but not another group? Because I can tell you right now, if I came to work with a beard I would get written up and sent home, and fired if I did it a second time. Yet my coworker, who is Jewish gets to grow a beard. It just doesn't sit right with me.

what line of work?
Law enforcement. I work in the armory for a police department. Department policy is clean shave. Muslims and Jews don't have to follow the policy.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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29-10-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: This is insanity
Insanity, you say?


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seriously, how did this get 3 pages in without this?

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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29-10-2015, 11:54 AM
RE: This is insanity
I'm ok with the ruling, assuming the company does more than just deliver alcohol, it does seem like a reasonable accommodation. I do however think $240K seems a bit excessive? I suppose it depends on the salary of the job they lost and the time it would reasonably take them to find additional work, but it still seems a bit much. Maybe there's "treble damages" or something in there to help serve as a deterrent for future discrimination though. Need more info.

Agree that this does not remotely apply to Kim Davis though, she swore an oath to uphold the law, and she's not.

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29-10-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 11:33 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 11:29 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  what line of work?
Law enforcement. I work in the armory for a police department. Department policy is clean shave. Muslims and Jews don't have to follow the policy.

Is that a universal thing or your particular dept? I remember the DARE man having a beard when I was a kid. I'm pretty sure that he wasn't Jewish or Muslim.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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29-10-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 11:15 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It would seem to me that some laws conflict. If an employer has to make accommodations for religious observances, how far does that extend?

For example, we know in Oregon that the bakery can't set a policy to not make a cake for a gay wedding. But can the individual employees make religious exemption claim to not make the cake? Just as the delivery drivers did not want to deliver alcohol. Could the bakery employee say, "sorry, pick someone else to make the cake, it goes against my beliefs." Or perhaps this religious accommodation could extend to the owner himself? Even though he owns the place, as a worker, couldn't he say I just can't do it? It's not a policy not to do wedding cakes for gay couples, he just can't do it himself due to religious observance, and unfortunately there is nobody else he can swap jobs with so pick a new bakery?

Religious freedom and anti-discrimination are about providing a shield to individuals who wish to observe their religious traditons. The moment you try to use it as a sword and impose your religious beliefs elsewhere you have an issue.

So, when you open a business to the public, you are required to open it to all the public. Some states don't include gays, but for those that do you must provide those services. The law does not allow for religious based discrimination.

In the original story, if the truck drivers refused to drive trucks that delivered to Jewish businesses because of a religious objection, they would have been shit out of luck.

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29-10-2015, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 12:34 PM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 12:22 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 11:33 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Law enforcement. I work in the armory for a police department. Department policy is clean shave. Muslims and Jews don't have to follow the policy.

Is that a universal thing or your particular dept? I remember the DARE man having a beard when I was a kid. I'm pretty sure that he wasn't Jewish or Muslim.

Every department is different I'd reckon. I've worked for a police department in Florida where everyone could have a beard. I've worked at two that had a clean shaven policy. My daughter worked at Publix grocery store in Florida, and they require all males to be clean shaven. I read it in her employee handbook. But I've noticed quite a few people with beards working there (I assume Muslim?). And those with beards had easier work, because they weren't allowed to go in the cooking areas or meat departments so their work load was less.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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29-10-2015, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 12:45 PM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: This is insanity
(29-10-2015 12:24 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 11:15 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It would seem to me that some laws conflict. If an employer has to make accommodations for religious observances, how far does that extend?

For example, we know in Oregon that the bakery can't set a policy to not make a cake for a gay wedding. But can the individual employees make religious exemption claim to not make the cake? Just as the delivery drivers did not want to deliver alcohol. Could the bakery employee say, "sorry, pick someone else to make the cake, it goes against my beliefs." Or perhaps this religious accommodation could extend to the owner himself? Even though he owns the place, as a worker, couldn't he say I just can't do it? It's not a policy not to do wedding cakes for gay couples, he just can't do it himself due to religious observance, and unfortunately there is nobody else he can swap jobs with so pick a new bakery?

Religious freedom and anti-discrimination are about providing a shield to individuals who wish to observe their religious traditons. The moment you try to use it as a sword and impose your religious beliefs elsewhere you have an issue.

So, when you open a business to the public, you are required to open it to all the public. Some states don't include gays, but for those that do you must provide those services. The law does not allow for religious based discrimination.

In the original story, if the truck drivers refused to drive trucks that delivered to Jewish businesses because of a religious objection, they would have been shit out of luck.

Thanks, I guess that makes more sense. You can claim a religious objection as long as that objection isn't discriminating against someone else. Got it.

That doesn't mean I agree with any of it though. Especially if one group gets special treatment, such as the whole beard thing. Equal protection under the law and all. If one group doesn't have to shave, nobody should have to. I hate to think that personal, non religious choice is any less important than religious choice.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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