This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-08-2016, 10:20 PM
This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
There was a book, published in 1998, called Space Between Words: The Origins of Silent Reading, written by Paul Saenger. It details the transition from reading out loud to the separation of words on a page which allowed silent reading.

http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

https://www.amazon.com/Space-Between-Wor...080474016X

I knew manuscripts and ancient texts were written in a continuous stream with no separation between the words but I never realized that people did not read silently. It was mostly oral. There is a passage in the book which describes St Augustine reading silently from a manuscript and Ambrose being amazed at such a concept. I haven't actually read the book but here is the passage from the comment Augustine wrote.

"His eyes traveled across the pages and his heart searched out the meaning, but his voice and tongue stayed still."

My thought is this. If reading out loud was the norm during the beginnings of Christianity then oral storytelling was a more emphasized aspect of life than I thought. Even for those few who could read, it was read out loud.

Apparently silent reading uses a separate part of the brain.

Anyway, you guys probably knew this but I didn't. Wow, I just reread my post and I did it silently. I'm amazing!

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like dancefortwo's post
15-08-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
At work.

+1 For new knowledge!

Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Peebothuhul's post
15-08-2016, 11:46 PM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
(15-08-2016 10:20 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a book, published in 1998, called Space Between Words: The Origins of Silent Reading, written by Paul Saenger. It details the transition from reading out loud to the separation of words on a page which allowed silent reading.

http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

https://www.amazon.com/Space-Between-Wor...080474016X

I knew manuscripts and ancient texts were written in a continuous stream with no separation between the words but I never realized that people did not read silently. It was mostly oral. There is a passage in the book which describes St Augustine reading silently from a manuscript and Ambrose being amazed at such a concept. I haven't actually read the book but here is the passage from the comment Augustine wrote.

"His eyes traveled across the pages and his heart searched out the meaning, but his voice and tongue stayed still."

My thought is this. If reading out loud was the norm during the beginnings of Christianity then oral storytelling was a more emphasized aspect of life than I thought. Even for those few who could read, it was read out loud.

Apparently silent reading uses a separate part of the brain.

Anyway, you guys probably knew this but I didn't. Wow, I just reread my post and I did it silently. I'm amazing!

I did not know that. Interesting. When I read silently I still hear the words in my head with my own voice. I just tried and I can't read without hearing the words in my head.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2016, 12:33 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
I sometimes read the words of others with another voice than my own in my head, especially if it's someone I've heard before. George Carlin's books, for instance -- I've seen so many of his specials on cable/Internet DLs that when I read his books, it's his voice I'm hearing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
16-08-2016, 03:29 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
I didn't know that! How cool, especially the anecdote about Augustine.

I remember being amazed by a book, while I was in college, by a neuroscientist named Leonard Schlain, called The Alphabet Versus the Goddess, in which he details changes to the wiring of the brain that accompanies the use of alphabetic (versus iconic or symbolic) written language.

His main contention was that religion and its accompanying cultural elements were shifted toward Patriarchy (male domination of society) by the emphasis on "left-brain" development that came from alphabetic reading/writing. I thought many of his conclusions were oversimplified and bent to fit the hypothesis, but he raised many points I had never before considered about history and cultural development, especially with regard to Christian history. I was still an "Ijustdontgiveafuckist", back then, and it got me thinking about religion in a way that helped push me over the line into admitting I was an "active" atheist, rather than an apathetic agnostic of sorts.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
16-08-2016, 05:33 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
I've always thought that writing was part of how religion got it's status and "legitimacy"....

After all -- when the MAJORITY of people couldn't read or write --- the simple ability to do so, must have seemed somewhat magical all in itself......

So when some asshole intoned "It is written" -- it must have been a spooky moment for the illiterate.......................

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
(16-08-2016 03:29 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I didn't know that! How cool, especially the anecdote about Augustine.

I remember being amazed by a book, while I was in college, by a neuroscientist named Leonard Schlain, called The Alphabet Versus the Goddess, in which he details changes to the wiring of the brain that accompanies the use of alphabetic (versus iconic or symbolic) written language.

His main contention was that religion and its accompanying cultural elements were shifted toward Patriarchy (male domination of society) by the emphasis on "left-brain" development that came from alphabetic reading/writing. I thought many of his conclusions were oversimplified and bent to fit the hypothesis, but he raised many points I had never before considered about history and cultural development, especially with regard to Christian history. I was still an "Ijustdontgiveafuckist", back then, and it got me thinking about religion in a way that helped push me over the line into admitting I was an "active" atheist, rather than an apathetic agnostic of sorts.

This is from the review of the book:

Saenger identifies the first properly spaced Latin manuscript as the Irish Book of Mulling, an illuminated translation of the Gospels dating from around 690 a.d. Indeed, he notes, the Irish soon adopted the the verb videre, "to see," as a way to describe reading. In a similar spirit, an Irish monk compared the activity of reading to a cat silently stalking a mouse.

Prior to this there were some manuscripts that had a few spaced words here and there but the first full spacing throughout a manuscript was the Irish Book of Mulling. Saenger asserts that the Irish monasteries had a collection of Syriac-language biblical texts from late antiquity, which used some word spacing but no vowels and the monks followed this pattern but expanded it throughout the entire text. It never occurred to me that reading silently needed to have spaced words and reading out loud relied on a continuous stream of words.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like dancefortwo's post
18-08-2016, 10:59 PM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
The capacity for reading silently has created a dilemma in human communication, as follows: as we evolved language, we spoke and heard at the same rate, say 100 WPM (just to put a peg on the graph paper - someone else can find the actual rate - the important point is that speaking and hearing are the same rate).

Reading silently trebled the "hearing" rate to about 300 WPM, which for most of us (who are able to read fluently) makes it preferable to listening: it saves time in attaining comprehension of fresh information/insights.

Unfortunately, only written language can be "heard" at 300 WPM. Try playing a spoken dialogue at 3 times normal rate and see how you do making out what's being said. It's not tenable. But writing stuff down, even today with computer based word processing, is about a 10 WPM process (well, that's MY rate, taking editing and cogitating into account). That's half an hour to write 300 words that make sense and are grammatically sound.

Hence the rate differential between optimum language production and optimum language comprehension is about 30 to 1, a differential far too great to permit the methods to prevail. So we're stuck having to watch YouTubes that take 3 times as long to get the point out of because it'd take the YouTube talker 10 times longer to write it down than to speak it.

We have advanced our use of language beyond the natural path of evolution. It's a conundrum.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Airportkid's post
19-08-2016, 02:13 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
Very intriguing.
I can't seem to read without saying the words in my head. I can recognize individual words and if I try really hard I can look back at what I've written and see a couple words together without saying it in my head, but if I try to string a sentence together, I begin saying the words in my head.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-08-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: This is something I didn't know and never thought about!
(15-08-2016 10:20 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a book, published in 1998, called Space Between Words: The Origins of Silent Reading, written by Paul Saenger. It details the transition from reading out loud to the separation of words on a page which allowed silent reading.

http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

https://www.amazon.com/Space-Between-Wor...080474016X

I knew manuscripts and ancient texts were written in a continuous stream with no separation between the words but I never realized that people did not read silently. It was mostly oral. There is a passage in the book which describes St Augustine reading silently from a manuscript and Ambrose being amazed at such a concept. I haven't actually read the book but here is the passage from the comment Augustine wrote.

"His eyes traveled across the pages and his heart searched out the meaning, but his voice and tongue stayed still."

My thought is this. If reading out loud was the norm during the beginnings of Christianity then oral storytelling was a more emphasized aspect of life than I thought. Even for those few who could read, it was read out loud.

Apparently silent reading uses a separate part of the brain.

Anyway, you guys probably knew this but I didn't. Wow, I just reread my post and I did it silently. I'm amazing!
Inttiguing stuff, dft.

Sort of thing that seems logical when pointed out. I presume literacy was not common in ancient times and the ability to read might have been a considerable power over what people actually heard in terms of news.

Spoken lore has been a very important teaching means in most societies even before the written word. Writing formalised the teachings, stopped renewal. And look what that led to - people still following the holy written word about concepts well out of date!

In most xtian countries the ''word of god'' was written only in Latin, so those in power, the priests, could interpret what the great unwashed were told. Can't have them thinking, or reading, for themselves can we? The intro of the bible in English caused Bishop Tyndale to get the chop, the ability to control by ignorance was that important.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: