This is the purpose of human life.
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31-07-2013, 02:56 PM
This is the purpose of human life.
Hey guys, I think it's an important question and we should answer it seriously and usefully. So I started a new thread. I'm really tired of people asking the great questions and receiving little answers.

The original one is here.

(30-07-2013 12:00 AM)ilgrigiogrey Wrote:  Do we really have a way to go in life? Is there a purpose to our existence? Do we even exist anyway?
We do exist. I ceased to exist once during meditation. Atoms of my body kept going on for the while and they were kind enough to record the experience for me. It was a very memorable, unmistakable feeling. I assure you, you'd know.

What is the purpose of human life?

As for the purpose of life, do not assume that we already assumed this purpose. Obviously it's not very obvious, so we need to do some soul-searching. So this is what's in my soul:

We as human beings can be in contact with this very strange but beautiful thing, called reality, more precisely, the world of ideas, world of perfect forms. I mean, there's no perfect circle in the world, but we look at some lopsided approximately round scribble and we think, "Ah, a circle! The 2*pi*radius!" We look at a court and prison and we think, "Ah, that's an attempt at justice! You know, the idea that reaction should be somewhat approximate to action. That's what this Hamurabbi guy meant with that eye for eye stuff." We look at a thing and we can sometimes see the "form" behind it. Nature is made of these principles, for those who have eyes and mind to see.

Now try it reverse. The great artist Salvador Dali said, good artists copy, great artists steal. And the great I say, "Where do the great artists steal from? They steal from the nature and the nature is made of the ideas, of the Platonic abstract forms." And this is the world of ideas, it's a treasury room of ideas. All that is true and beautiful and real about the world is there.

So, what do we do about it? Get these ideas, of course. We must access these ideas for inspiration. And then we need some skills to express these ideas in a very practical, tangible way. We can only gather and express inspiration in a way that suits us, that for which we have instruments and knowledge. Knowledge is the vocabulary of inspiration. Inspiration doesn't tell you anything new, it arranges the knowledge that is already in your head in a way that feels just right, like when letters are arranged into words. So you really need to be educated in many various areas of experience in order to be creative and inspired, just like you need an alphabet to write.

So musicians will express musical inspiration, painters visual. Politically minded folks will build nations and institutions, devotional people will invent new ways to worship gods. Businessmen will download business ideas and plans. Scientists will bring new aspects of reality into our understanding. And this is what it means to be creative. It means taking with your mind, recognizing some general principle, some pure aspect of reality and expressing it in some new way. It's a compelling idea that you have to express. However, all the best aspect of reality are pretty much eternal, timeless. So expect that there's no credit you can take. That's a feeling you're going to get a lot, if you do it the right way. You'll be nothing but a thief in the treasury of reality. And you might perhaps sometimes wonder why this isn't obvious to everyone.

That's about it. Learn a broad range of experience, meditate and contemplate ideas, get inspired, express the inspiration in any way that suits you. Planting a garden? No problem. Raising children? No problem. Doesn't have to be Sixtine chapel painting. It's not a contest, just the meaning of human life.
However, going to work, working routine, paying bills, paying taxes and especially watching TV is highly detrimental to your inspiration, meditation, intuition and all this other tion stuff. The world needs to be freed from this terrible monetary economy stuff, so that we can finally live as people, not as producer/consumer machines. Live as receivers of inspiration and creative artists with life as our canvas. That's the function of humanity, that's what only we can do and what we do best. That's a good candidate on ultimate happiness in life, the state of flow, from inspiration to manifestation. I really can't think of anything else that would fit the description for the purpose of human life.


Ok, was that clear enough? Any questions? Mind you, this is not complete. One impression you get from the world of ideas, that it is one interconnected whole and no idea taken from it alone is ever complete, it always leads to other ideas. Ideas that do not lead to other ideas are not real. Answers that are final are no answers at all. So I just outlined the general human purpose. There's a room for more, but here I am drawing heavily from my own experiences and deep contemplations. I am not always like that, but I got a good taste of how this creativity and inspiration works and now I'm trying to pass that experience and knowledge to you. It's all a very logical thing, but it also feels absolutely blissful and meaningful. I hope you all experience it soon as possible. I hope we change the world in such a way that everyone will be able to live like that.


Now, I have this impression that I might be turning into an actual, real philosopher, without even getting into this medieval and ancient philosophy stuff. However, it is not up to me to say that, I can always use a second opinion. Tells me a lot about other people too. So, would you please confirm, deny or ignore this impression? Wink

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31-07-2013, 03:10 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 03:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Nope. Just the same ole Greek "idealism"/dualism thing. There is no evidence that a "perfect circle" actually exists, (out there) just because you say you can call up an image of one in your brain.

The question is, "why do you NEED to ask this question, and what would you accept as an answer" ? Why would there be "one" purpose ? Why not five ?
Human life is life. Are you asking why "life" exists ? Life happened because it's more probable than not, given the conditions.

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31-07-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
I was slightly disappointed when the 1st post wasn't just...

Live long and prosper.

Sad

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31-07-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
I was going to make a thread on a certain subject but I think I can employ my thoughts into here.

"What is the purpose of human life"

I have highlighted the word human, as it elevates us as a separate entity from all other life on this planet. We all have family trees and there exists records that we can all use to varying limits to track our lineage back in time.

However xxxxxx amount of years ago our very far ancestors were very very primitive. There existed a time when we had no real in-depth language, our brains were limited and we were more in harmony with nature. We were in many, many ways comparable to apes that we have in the wild and that we look at in zoos. We were animals, the very same sort that collectively we all look down upon and think we are more superior too today.

So I think this sense of "I", this sense of "we" (humans) whilst interesting to philosophise over a purpose, in turn detracts away from any real answer of why "Life" exists.

Anyway... theres my ideas for my thread I no longer have to write Tongue

I cant actually answer your original question as I consider myself a nihilist and that is probably the best way to describe my paradoxical way of thinking from multiple angles towards subjects, although on a more personal basis that is true to my contextual ego I can appreciate your thoughts and maybe why you have them.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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31-07-2013, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 03:47 PM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 03:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. Just the same ole Greek "idealism"/dualism thing. There is no evidence that a "perfect circle" actually exists, (out there) just because you say you can call up an image of one in your brain.
It exists, however the reality is not all empirical. It is empirical at the core, but around this core there are subtler levels of reality, or if you want, aspects of reality, that can only be accessed by human mind. A circle is an example of the rational reality.

We know these things are objectively real, because they can be objectively accessed by human minds worldwide, perhaps universe-wide. They are, as I said, properties of reality. They do not seem to contain any energy or matter, but they determine it.

If you want, these are fundamental properties of 3D and possibly more D space, things like properties of propagation through space...

(31-07-2013 03:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The question is, "why do you NEED to ask this question, and what would you accept as an answer" ? Why would there be "one" purpose ?
As I said, the answer is not complete. Nothing that can be said can be complete. I just outlined the general principle. Feel free to contemplate it on the background of your own life.

Why do I NEED? Because there is one reality, one world, in which all is interconnected. No real place, no real idea, that wouldn't lead to to others. If I am a part of this world, then makes me (and sooner or later everyone) seek connection with other parts. I accept as answers the ideas that lead towards a broader, interconnected awareness of the reality. I handle with caution the ideas that represent the reality in a narrower way.

Reality has a way of being fractal, of iterating itself in different patterns based on similar forms. Through generalization and re-application of these patterns, we get to know the reality better and better.

(31-07-2013 03:14 PM)LostLocke Wrote:  I was slightly disappointed when the 1st post wasn't just...

Live long and prosper.

Sad
Yeah, but how do we do that? Anyway, that's a recipe for overpopulation. IIRC, it came from a race of intellectuals on the brink of extinction Tongue And anyway I have never found Vulcans logical. Hellbent on tradition yes, but not logical. Suppressing emotion isn't logical either.

(31-07-2013 03:20 PM)bemore Wrote:  So I think this sense of "I", this sense of "we" (humans) whilst interesting to philosophise over a purpose, in turn detracts away from any real answer of why "Life" exists.
You're right on here. I find that in the moments of deepest inspiration, the personality, the sense of I disappears. I'd say that the personal identity is a stage of growth we need to go through. It lifts us from animal stage, but then we can become so high on wisdom, that our personality doesn't matter anymore. If you listen to some Krishnamurti's lectures, when he speaks, he calls himself "this speaker" or something like that. I can understand him, I've been in mind states like this.

(31-07-2013 03:20 PM)bemore Wrote:  I cant actually answer your original question as I consider myself a nihilist and that is probably the best way to describe my paradoxical way of thinking from multiple angles towards subjects, although on a more personal basis that is true to my contextual ego I can appreciate your thoughts and maybe why you have them.
Would you please write me something more? Nihilism tells me nothing. As a rule of thumb, I am wary of all isms. Isms tend to be just good ideas that someone applied too broadly, beyond their area of usefulness, that is limited both in historical time and context. I am probably no kind of ist, I didn't find yet any ism big enough to settle in.
So please write me something specific. As a rule and almost a reflex, I also think from multiple angles toward subjects. I like paradoxes, as a form of humor, but so far I've always found them as a unity within a broader framework of reality.

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31-07-2013, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 04:19 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Nope. "We" know nothing of the sort. "Universe wide ???". Where is your evidence. You assume the universe is similar everywhere. No Physicist would assert that, (yet). This is an argument for a god, I hope you realize. Just because you can "imagine" a perfect circle, does not imply anything further. It's in your brain, (only). Just because "some" human brains, with sufficiently similar learning experiences, hold things in common, does not mean they "exist" anywhere else, other than in human brains. What human brains *think* is reality (logical), has been proven to NOT necessarily, be the case. This is just a twist on the ad populum fallacy.

"They do not seem to contain any energy or matter, but they determine it"
Provide the evidence for that.

Your woo-woo, ("a world of perfect forms") is all fuzzy and warm, but your brain cooked it up. There are just as many "imperfect" forms. Sorry. It's just woo-woo under a different guise. This "universal perfection" bs is one of Aquinas' proofs for god. There is no universal concept of what a "perfect" anything is.

You're saying what might make life meaningful for YOU. That's as far as YOU get to take it.
What you find meaningful or beautiful, or "perfect", someone else might find ugly, imperfect and boring.
Who's to say a circle is not an imperfect ellipse ?

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31-07-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 03:33 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Would you please write me something more? Nihilism tells me nothing. As a rule of thumb, I am wary of all isms. Isms tend to be just good ideas that someone applied too broadly, beyond their area of usefulness, that is limited both in historical time and context. I am probably no kind of ist, I didn't find yet any ism big enough to settle in.
So please write me something specific. As a rule and almost a reflex, I also think from multiple angles toward subjects. I like paradoxes, as a form of humor, but so far I've always found them as a unity within a broader framework of reality.

Sure, no probs.

We share in common the appreciation of exploring subjects from multiple angles. For me personally these different approaches afford me to consider in hindsight what could be considered "right or wrong". Under personal introspection I realise I am flawed by my personal experiences in my life and my biases (as much as I try to overcome/overlook them). I dont really like labels however I identify with the word "Nihilist" as I feel that it easily explains my current overall answer that there is no definitive "right or wrong" and that the "answer" is as unique as the individual.

As much as I like to muse things over, my nihilism appreciation I dont actually apply in real life. It is something that only exists in my head and I do have beliefs and opinions on matters still. Which is why I can appreciate that maybe we are not creative enough, that our societies have always been "led" by different factors (with our current ones being materialism, consumerism and possibly the biggest religion of faith....money) which takes away our freedom to some degree. I appreciate your artist analogy and when I first joined this place I made a thread entitled "Will I ever have an original thought" which basically asked would I ever think of something that wasn't based upon previous knowledge and how could I recognise it if I did? (or actually explain it to another)

Also whilst I appreciate your views I wonder of their relevance to millions of years ago (hence my mentioning our prehistoric ancestors). Would your viewpoint have been relevant a thousand years ago and would they be relevant in a thousand years time from now?

Did you have these views If Id asked a 5 year old Luminon of purpose and how much can you guarantee that a 100 year old Luminon will still have those same views?

I also consider my own personal purpose as a work in progress. Death (or the realisation of it to be through a terminal illness or going though death itself) may afford and even shatter any thought I have through my life and teach me something entirely new.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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31-07-2013, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 04:50 PM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 03:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. "We" know nothing of the sort. "Universe wide ???". Where is your evidence. You assume the universe is similar everywhere. No Physicist would assert that, (yet).
Well, the universe might not be the same anywhere, for example there seems to be a fluctuation of the so-called gravitational "constant", so I heard from Rupert Sheldrake. However, a circle remains a circle anywhere in the universe, perhaps except of black hole core or below the Planck length.

(31-07-2013 03:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This is an argument for a god, I hope you realize. Just because you can "imagine" a perfect circle, does not imply anything further. It's in your brain, (only). Just because "some" human brains, with sufficiently similar learning experiences, hold things in common, does not mean they "exist" anywhere else, other than in human brains. What human brains *think* is reality (logical), has been proven to NOT necessarily, be the case. This is just a twist on the ad populum fallacy.
Human brains are in no way separate from reality. They are a part of reality just like everything else. So by necessity it is not an argument for god, but for an openness, connection of human brains to reality. If you wish to call this reality god, then it would have to be a pantheistic god.

Empirically you have a point, but the validity of the empiricism itself must be first verified by philosophy (noetics) and that can not be done empirically. How do you empirically prove that empirical method is true? That would be regression ad infinitum. We need noetics and other branches of philosophy to establish basic rules of reality. Don't worry, this was already successfully done. I've got it in my old workbook, the proof is a bit lengthty though. I did it for my philosophy exam this year, but you should be able to google up the noetical proof easily enough.

(31-07-2013 03:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "They do not seem to contain any energy or matter, but they determine it"
Provide the evidence for that.
The lack of empirical evidence for a perfect circle in nature? Smile Nature seems to fear perfection just as much as it fears emptiness.

(31-07-2013 03:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your woo-woo, ("a world of perfect forms") is all fuzzy and warm, but your brain cooked it up. There are just as many "imperfect" forms. Sorry. It's just woo-woo under a different guise.
Well, it is my experience, one that seems to be shared across the world and by philosophers of history. If my brain cooked it up, then all the brains would cook up a different world.

But if you want to object on empirical grounds, you need philosophy to prove the empirical method. Philosophy is where all knowledge begins. Noetics can prove itself, empirical method can't, it ultimately relies on noetics.

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31-07-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 04:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If my brain cooked it up, then all the brains would cook up a different world.

But if you want to object on empirical grounds, you need philosophy to prove the empirical method. Philosophy is where all knowledge begins. Noetics can prove itself, empirical method can't, it ultimately relies on noetics.

No because even ONE example would refute the whole. "Perfection" is completely subjective.

I don't "need philosophy" to do anything. All I need is to show that Philosophy missed important concepts, and Logic is worthless. Which is easy.

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31-07-2013, 07:14 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Reads like you're in love with your own writing, so you already make a fine philosopher. Thumbsup

Of course, making a second thread argues against universal, perfect forms, now don't it? Tongue

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