This is the purpose of human life.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
31-07-2013, 07:37 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
We all (animals and plants included, all life) exist to facilitate the existence of other life.

Everything gets recycled one way or another.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-07-2013, 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 08:27 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Purpose is a such a loaded word. Why does my mind work the way it does? Some variant relatively close to it helped my ancestors survive, get laid and raise partial copies. That is the only answer I know of. Does that make my purpose reproduction?

Purpose only even exists as a construct of your mind, it is a meme, the product of other human minds. To my genes my only purpose is to facilitate replication. To the common cold I'm the world itself. There is no such thing as purpose but I feel I should freely define my own practical meme 'purpose' for whatever it's worth. (I've always liked 'the universe's venture into understanding itself' one).

That's not to say I don't agree with you on a lot of points Luminon, reality is a perception and perceptions can be enhanced or modified or incomplete. The world we know with our eyes is a grainy picture at best, buts that is what we have physics and engineering for.

There are most certainly other levels or modes of consciousness that we step into or that we can train ourselves into or drug ourselves into. I think that there are certainly multiple modes of thought and that some people are born better at or learn from a young age how to think in these ways but that others can learn to access them. Playing improv music there is a mental state that you can slip in and out of in which everything becomes very automatic and surreal. Designing or making art has a similar state and all the creative disciplines are tied together by the human sense of balance, contrast, patterns, etc. You are right that there is plenty of inspiration to be had from and indeed all things are from nature.

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 05:28 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 05:52 AM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 04:35 PM)bemore Wrote:  Sure, no probs.

We share in common the appreciation of exploring subjects from multiple angles. For me personally these different approaches afford me to consider in hindsight what could be considered "right or wrong". Under personal introspection I realise I am flawed by my personal experiences in my life and my biases (as much as I try to overcome/overlook them). I dont really like labels however I identify with the word "Nihilist" as I feel that it easily explains my current overall answer that there is no definitive "right or wrong" and that the "answer" is as unique as the individual.
Ah! Is that your nihilism? I would rather call it the dark night of the soul. Your personal biases limit you and so you need to get rid of them, so you can find new meaning and grow in it.
I went through such a phase since the end of my teens and to a large degree I still go now, though since last autumn there really has been a revolutionary turn. I hope to say that the dark night of my particular soul is just breaking into the dawn.
Yes, it was harsh, very much so, but more on the personal, health and social level, than philosophic.

(31-07-2013 04:35 PM)bemore Wrote:  As much as I like to muse things over, my nihilism appreciation I dont actually apply in real life. It is something that only exists in my head and I do have beliefs and opinions on matters still. Which is why I can appreciate that maybe we are not creative enough, that our societies have always been "led" by different factors (with our current ones being materialism, consumerism and possibly the biggest religion of faith....money) which takes away our freedom to some degree. I appreciate your artist analogy and when I first joined this place I made a thread entitled "Will I ever have an original thought" which basically asked would I ever think of something that wasn't based upon previous knowledge and how could I recognise it if I did? (or actually explain it to another)
Yeah, I think I remember a little Smile I already had some inspiration back then.
Yes, our society is old and dying. And old people are prone to being devoured by cancer from the inside. However, civilizations die and new ones get born. They don't get born out of nowhere, there are eternal philosophic values that give rise to them. Philosophic knowledge is by definition real, certain, necessary and general knowledge about reality. It may seem self-evident, but good philosophy makes a difference between Constitution of USA and between Nazi laws of Blood and Honor. (genocidal laws) Good philosophy must have a damn good definition of what is the human being, what is the freedom and if the human as defined can be free as defined. That is a very tricky thing to get right and there is no wonder we know of so many totalitarian regimes.

However, if I am a philosopher, it is my duty to spread the message that there are real, certain, necessary and general truths about the world - and if we hold onto these truths, we can build a civilization of a golden age.
I must confront the mental plague of relativism, nihilism and dogmaticism and any other isms, for they all are mere fragments of culture, best left to history.
When I see people imprisoned in doubting human ability to reason, people who believe that the humane idealist next doors might be the next Hitler, ... mind forg'd manacles I hear!

(31-07-2013 04:35 PM)bemore Wrote:  Also whilst I appreciate your views I wonder of their relevance to millions of years ago (hence my mentioning our prehistoric ancestors). Would your viewpoint have been relevant a thousand years ago and would they be relevant in a thousand years time from now?
Millions of years ago humanity's needs would be entirely different. At this stage even phenomena like war of sex trade would be beneficial, serving to create pre-human groups similar to chimp or bonobo behavior seen today. Goodness or as someone would say, growth of awareness does not have any set form, it is a direction of progress. Two thousand years ago Christianity was the new hot thing, worlds better than the old animal sacrificing religion of Judaism. Since then the progress/awareness started abandoning the crystallized, unchangeable shell of Christianity and seeks new forms to give life to. But this time just a new religion won't do, we need all new institutions. Economic, political, social...

What I say would be relevant a thousand years ago, but incomprehensible to humanity. Humanity had been back then still firmly caught in the dream, the illusion of the civilization, the big story of self-sacrifice, self-righteousness, idealism and eternal reward after we die, not here on Earth. This dream is breaking apart now and we need a new civilizational dream to teach us a new lesson. This new lesson of a civilization would certainly be relevant 1000 years from now, they seem to have a shelf life about 2000 years. However anything I say today would hopefully seem true, though trivial and obvious to people of the future.

(31-07-2013 04:35 PM)bemore Wrote:  Did you have these views If Id asked a 5 year old Luminon of purpose and how much can you guarantee that a 100 year old Luminon will still have those same views?
If you ask about philosophy, I have to say yes. I've always had lots of good quality material to learn from and build on. The reasons I had for some of my views at the age of 5 are still here at the age of 25. By quality material I mean a solid, hands-on, repeated detailed experience. As it is said, a man who has experience is never at mercy of a man who has an argument. I have lots of experience and that allowed me to keep the direction of investigation even though I used to have no arguments. Now I'd say I have both, the only thing that's missing is a neurologic laboratory with my name on it. But that's excessive, considering there is a civilization to save right now. So philosophically I am well off, all my imperfections and vices of character are concentrated elsewhere.

When it comes to matters of normal life, keeping company, family contacts, friendships and love, I am guilty as charged. This is my weak spot, the skill of being human. I have changed my views here many times, often towards the worse, I have lied to myself and I came to recognize the lies. I haven't solved anything yet, only recognized the extent of the problem. That is a half of the solution, but I have no idea about the second half. I'd say I've done nearly everything I could do alone.
In other words, you could trust me to design a non-totalitarian system of society, but you could not trust me to find a girlfriend within a year.

(31-07-2013 04:35 PM)bemore Wrote:  I also consider my own personal purpose as a work in progress. Death (or the realisation of it to be through a terminal illness or going though death itself) may afford and even shatter any thought I have through my life and teach me something entirely new.
Daamn... I'm sorry to hear that.
I tend to look at these things from the woo point of view. Many people with a particular disease seem to have a particular problem of attitude. The traditional woo lore of my folk says, that if you correct your attitude to life, you might experience almost a miraculous cure. I heard that neuropeptides produced by thinking influence the immune cells and might weaken them in some area of the body, inviting disease. So a change of thinking might lead back to health. There was a case like that in my family. But should you change your attitude back, the death should be quick.

So here you have it. For me, death and the sublime is no mystery, life and the mundane is.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 05:51 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 07:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  We all (animals and plants included, all life) exist to facilitate the existence of other life.

Everything gets recycled one way or another.
I'm not denying that, only saying this is an incomplete truth, to put it mildly.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No because even ONE example would refute the whole. "Perfection" is completely subjective.
Yes, perfection is subjective. However, the process of perfecting, or progress of the consciousness is not subjective. It is a universal tendency. We may push it forward, we may resist it, we may do our best against it, but all this is done along its direction. Liberals of today are the conservatives of tomorrow. Progress on its way was nourished by their ideas and abandoned them as isms, droppings of the past.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't "need philosophy" to do anything.
Right, you don't need philosophy to do anything, that is very true. You can do anything without philosophy, you can do it in a very intelligent and efficient way. Only without philosophy at the beginning you will not know if that which you do so adeptly was the right thing to do. Without philosophy you can be the best runner, but you will run in a wrong direction and nothing you ever do will be right, until you backtrack all the way.

For example, the Nazi concentration camps were run in a very efficient, neat, recorded way and legally they were completely all right. Nuremberg trials were not legally all right, for the first time in history they invented a retroactive legal punishment for the Nazis.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All I need is to show that Philosophy missed important concepts, and Logic is worthless. Which is easy.
Of course you can devise a situation in which logic is worthless. It is easy, logic means garbage in, garbage out.
However, philosophy is concerned with real, necessary, general and objective truths about the world and these are very simple and fundamental properties of reality. You are not likely to find any new ones. Philosophy defines what is a concept, truth, thought, idea, word (semantics) and so on. This is a very dry and boring part of philosophy. It is not like empirical science, where new, game-changing properties of reality are discovered every year.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 07:30 AM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Sorry, this is a little lengthty. But it's packed with meaning. You're free to complain. I would not be surprised if people only understood what I write after they have experienced the states of consciousness that I experience. My native country, the United States of Consciousness Cool
But it should be possible to go along the lines with logic alone. The solution is already inherent in reality, just like the straight line of a shoelace is inherent in the knot. You only need to know where to start pulling.

(31-07-2013 08:24 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Purpose is a such a loaded word. Why does my mind work the way it does? Some variant relatively close to it helped my ancestors survive, get laid and raise partial copies. That is the only answer I know of. Does that make my purpose reproduction?
That depends: Big Grin "My purpose"? What is you? What is asking this question? Where does the question come from? It came through your brain, but it has nothing to do with your brain. The question is not wet, pink, folded and squishy. Neither it is a question that wild animals ask.
You have to look for answer inside your own consciousness. Do not identify yourself with the body, the body is the means, not the meaning. When the proverbial Buddha points at the Moon, don't look at the finger.

As I said, reproduction is a purpose in itself, obviously. It makes things possible, but it does not try to give them meaning. Meaning is something that connects us with the rest of reality. We are connected to our ancestors in some way, but it is a very obscure way, so we have to keep looking for other connections to the world, other purposes and meanings. The best connection we can make is to connect the "highest" and the "lowest", to bring rise and progress to the "lowest".

What does that mean? As I said, you have to look for answer inside your own consciousness. The expanded consciousness should allow you to make a value judgement, to form a hierarchy of values and to bring a desire to express these values. If you can do that, you will find your purpose. So, the test:

If we are indeed open to the whole of reality, you can test that hypothesis through meditation and contemplation. As I said before, nothing has a purpose in itself, the ultimate purpose of everything is unity and harmony. So what is your personal or group way of recognizing these two and manifesting them? First recognizing.
Unity does not mean sameness, it means all interconnected. Harmony does not mean 50/50 ratio of everything, it means all dynamically shifting into the right place, time, proportion, in accordance with the right hierarchy of values.
Hierarchy of values is a very tricky, very philosophical thing to get right. I'd rather not go into detail, but I have a file stashed on it somewhere. The lower must always serve the higher, not vice versa. Recognizing what is lower and what higher, that's the tricky part. However you can find some solutions by realizing that the higher encompasses and includes the lower and therefore is in harmony with it, as long as the lower and lesser serves the higer and greater. There comes a point however, when two values are equal and therefore of the same value, where you can not make a compromise.

(31-07-2013 08:24 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Purpose only even exists as a construct of your mind, it is a meme, the product of other human minds. To my genes my only purpose is to facilitate replication. To the common cold I'm the world itself. There is no such thing as purpose but I feel I should freely define my own practical meme 'purpose' for whatever it's worth. (I've always liked 'the universe's venture into understanding itself' one).
That is not the human purpose of harmony and unity. The blind forces of nature do not have the same purpose as human consciousness. They have quite an opposite purpose - to seize the world, to replicate and fill it with biological life and organic matter and to evolve through death of the less adapted individuals. Yes, it is a legitimate purpose for the natural world, but not for us. It is legitimate, because it makes lots of other things possible. That is a good philosophic sign.

But we have rejected the nature the moment we decided to mourn for the dead, start a fire, wipe out predators, plow a field, write down knowledge, live beyond the average age of 30 and take contraception. (a special variety of fennel, now extinct, very popular in Roman Empire)
We rejected the nature and its purpose, we lost the thing that "protected" us from overpopulation and destroying the world. The humanity entered its adolescent phase, rebelling against the old order, but without yet having an order of its own. We can not possibly go back, we have to go forward, to figure out what it really means to be humanity, what is our function in the greater scheme of things. We are not to be subservient to nature, we must assume our stewardship over it and we must become aware of the greater world of philosophic truths that is above our human nature. That is our floor and ceiling, this is our place to stand.
If you know the full legend of Prometheus, each of us is to be like him, stealing not just fire from the proverbial gods, but also the divine law of right human relationships that was locked in Zeus's chest which the original Prometheus did not bring to humanity, because he didn't have the balls to break into Zeus's house.

That was just a metaphor, that for ages we were stuck with the "fire of the gods", but no idea what to do with it. But Greeks were right. Every sociologist will tell you, that our technical and scientific development is way ahead of our social and ethical development. The solution is not to give up technology and go back up the trees as the Unabomber terrorist mistakenly believed. It is to increase the effort on the front of philosophy and humanistic sciences and to bring them into the everyday life and institutions.
Does our politics and business not allow that ? Well then, away with them. We either do that, or we're all dead, together with all life on the planet. We'll scorch the place with nukes, sooner or later.

(31-07-2013 08:24 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  That's not to say I don't agree with you on a lot of points Luminon, reality is a perception and perceptions can be enhanced or modified or incomplete. The world we know with our eyes is a grainy picture at best, buts that is what we have physics and engineering for.

There are most certainly other levels or modes of consciousness that we step into or that we can train ourselves into or drug ourselves into. I think that there are certainly multiple modes of thought and that some people are born better at or learn from a young age how to think in these ways but that others can learn to access them. Playing improv music there is a mental state that you can slip in and out of in which everything becomes very automatic and surreal. Designing or making art has a similar state and all the creative disciplines are tied together by the human sense of balance, contrast, patterns, etc. You are right that there is plenty of inspiration to be had from and indeed all things are from nature.
Riiiight! By now I'd say it is obvious I trained myself to enter these states of consciousness. I don't need any drugs for that. I don't even think my brain does that chemically, because it's not addictive nor lingering.

But you have to understand this, these states of consciousness show us the possibilities ahead of us. They show what path leads to destruction and what leads to a golden age of humanity. Some patterns of human conduct are viable in the long run, some aren't. Some can develop into something greater, some can't. So I'd say this is a very legitimate field of inquiry, very important for the world. Do not be surprised, if people like me say, that the current legal definition of ownership or property rights and institutions and life style based on them are all completely wrong and threaten the survival of humanity. Do not start ringing the Communist alarm, the Communists made mistakes of their own.
I can see a solution, that is in harmony with all my philosophic senses, sensors and antennae that I can muster. Yes, it's Jacque Fresco's TVP, there's very little I could improve on this one. I am impressed by TVP. I hope that little fact alone will make an impression on you Tongue


(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No because even ONE example would refute the whole. "Perfection" is completely subjective.
Yes, perfection is subjective. However, the process of perfecting, the progress of the consciousness is not subjective. It is a universal tendency. We may push it forward, we may resist it, we may do our best against it, but all this is done along its direction. Liberals of today are the conservatives of tomorrow. Progress on its way was nourished by their ideas and abandoned them as isms, as droppings of the past. The progress of consciousness is like a human being, walking on two feet. One foot is reaching into the future but not yet firmly on the ground, the other is a support of the past, yet it must be lifted as well, sooner or later. This is reflected in duality of everything. For example, in duality of capitalism and socialism, leftism and rightism. Left wing and right wing ultimately reflect the duality of consciousness and matter, the ends and means, the purpose and the way to make it possible.

This shifting of consciousness between duality of means and ends, is further qualified by another dimension, of progress and reactionarism. We get a circular movement, but forward, a spiral of consciousness. Consciousness is the rider of the spiral. Isn't that right, ridethespiral ? Big Grin

Sorry. I know that's a lot to respond to one short comment, but this shit is important. A philosopher must know that, or he'll just be a follower of his favorite ideology.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't "need philosophy" to do anything.
Right, you don't need philosophy to do anything, that is very true. You can do anything without philosophy, you can do it in a very intelligent and efficient way. Only without philosophy at the beginning you will not know if that which you do so adeptly was the right thing to do. Without philosophy you can be the best runner, but you will run in a wrong direction and nothing you ever do will be right, until you backtrack all the way.

For example, the Nazi concentration camps were run in a very efficient, neat, recorded way and legally they were completely all right. Nuremberg trials were not legally all right, for the first time in history they invented a retroactive legal punishment for the Nazis.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All I need is to show that Philosophy missed important concepts, and Logic is worthless. Which is easy.
Of course you can devise a situation in which logic is worthless. It is easy, logic means garbage in, garbage out.
However, philosophy is concerned with real, necessary, general and objective truths about the world and these are very simple and fundamental properties of reality. You are not likely to find any new ones. Philosophy defines what is a concept, truth, thought, idea, word (semantics) and so on. This is a very dry and boring part of philosophy. It is not like empirical science, where new, game-changing properties of reality are discovered every year.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 07:25 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(31-07-2013 07:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Reads like you're in love with your own writing, so you already make a fine philosopher. Thumbsup
I hope it's not my writing! It should be reality's own writing. The Divine Pattern, as I call it. Not Luminon's Pattern Wink I don't want to be original, great minds think alike, because they all steal from the same source.

(31-07-2013 07:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Of course, making a second thread argues against universal, perfect forms, now don't it? Tongue
Good point Laughat
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 07:26 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 07:52 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
For a guy who supposedly "lost self" in meditation, you're sure full of yourself on this topic. "Packed with meaning," indeed. Packed with self-congratulatory rhetoric is more like it. Dodgy

EDIT: Actually, that's too much assholery on my part, but my interpretation of tone in these posts is condesension.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 07:29 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Are we really talking about Plato's forms - The perfect things that certainly exist in a world just out of our reach? The perfect things that our universe is just a shadow of? The perfect beauty? The perfect roundness? The perfect number one form which all representations of the number one derive their one-ness from?

Are we proposing here that Plato was right in believing these things actually physically exist?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 07:55 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 07:29 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Are we really talking about Plato's forms - The perfect things that certainly exist in a world just out of our reach? The perfect things that our universe is just a shadow of? The perfect beauty? The perfect roundness? The perfect number one form which all representations of the number one derive their one-ness from?

Are we proposing here that Plato was right in believing these things actually physically exist?

Reads that way, huh? Or Kant's Noumenon... 'cause I like Kant more. Big Grin

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 07:29 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Are we really talking about Plato's forms - The perfect things that certainly exist in a world just out of our reach? The perfect things that our universe is just a shadow of? The perfect beauty? The perfect roundness? The perfect number one form which all representations of the number one derive their one-ness from?

Are we proposing here that Plato was right in believing these things actually physically exist?
Not physically. We need another category of existence. We must accept that not all existence or reality is physical, not all is made of fundamental particles, atoms and molecules. Not all real things are whats, some are hows. Yeah, I think that's the same thing as Kant's noumenons.

And these hows are for example the mathematical patterns that the universe follows. Of course, they break down on the quantum or relativistic levels, so they may be just illusions, just the maya of reality. But that wouldn't make the rest of our reality any more real!

I'd say that the only thing that is ultimately real is the energy and matter of the universe and all the laws governing it. That must include dark matter and energy. All patterns or illusions that it arranges are proportionally "real" to how much energy or matter they include. But all illusion is based on containing less energy that the reality beyond it, that created it...

(01-08-2013 07:26 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  For a guy who supposedly "lost self" in meditation, you're sure full of yourself on this topic. "Packed with meaning," indeed. Packed with self-congratulatory rhetoric is more like it. Dodgy

EDIT: Actually, that's too much assholery on my part, but my interpretation of tone in these posts is condesension.
Well, I might be enjoying myself a bit too much. But I'd like you to enjoy yourself too, if you stop looking at the finger pointing at the Moon (that would be me) and start looking at the Moon Wink
I don't see into everyone's heads and I can't presume that all these different people will understand what I mean. Maybe it has to be experienced with one's mind, I can't experience things for other people.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: