This is the purpose of human life.
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01-08-2013, 08:30 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 08:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, I might be enjoying myself a bit too much. But I'd like you to enjoy yourself too, if you stop looking at the finger pointing at the Moon (that would be me) and start looking at the Moon Wink

I was enjoying myself... being an asshole. Big Grin

But then that dang Gwynnies got in my brain, and since she's all sweetness and light, I had to backpedal... dang Gwynnies. Tongue

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01-08-2013, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 08:54 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 05:51 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 07:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  We all (animals and plants included, all life) exist to facilitate the existence of other life.

Everything gets recycled one way or another.
I'm not denying that, only saying this is an incomplete truth, to put it mildly.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No because even ONE example would refute the whole. "Perfection" is completely subjective.
Yes, perfection is subjective. However, the process of perfecting, or progress of the consciousness is not subjective. It is a universal tendency. We may push it forward, we may resist it, we may do our best against it, but all this is done along its direction. Liberals of today are the conservatives of tomorrow. Progress on its way was nourished by their ideas and abandoned them as isms, droppings of the past.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't "need philosophy" to do anything.
Right, you don't need philosophy to do anything, that is very true. You can do anything without philosophy, you can do it in a very intelligent and efficient way. Only without philosophy at the beginning you will not know if that which you do so adeptly was the right thing to do. Without philosophy you can be the best runner, but you will run in a wrong direction and nothing you ever do will be right, until you backtrack all the way.

For example, the Nazi concentration camps were run in a very efficient, neat, recorded way and legally they were completely all right. Nuremberg trials were not legally all right, for the first time in history they invented a retroactive legal punishment for the Nazis.

(31-07-2013 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All I need is to show that Philosophy missed important concepts, and Logic is worthless. Which is easy.
Of course you can devise a situation in which logic is worthless. It is easy, logic means garbage in, garbage out.
However, philosophy is concerned with real, necessary, general and objective truths about the world and these are very simple and fundamental properties of reality. You are not likely to find any new ones. Philosophy defines what is a concept, truth, thought, idea, word (semantics) and so on. This is a very dry and boring part of philosophy. It is not like empirical science, where new, game-changing properties of reality are discovered every year.

Sorry to interrupt your preaching reverend, but "devising a situation" is hardly the case. Science in the 20th and 21st centuries has proven that what human brains perceive to be "logical" (thus "philosophically correct") is of little to no use in the determining what Reality is all about. But you are "just adorable". Did you just take Philosophy 101 and just HAD to come and impose your views about it on people here ? Dodgy I run in a number of marathons every year, and I have yet to consult my Kant about which direction I need to go, to get to the finish line.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-08-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
'Nature' led to us, and we are inescapably of it. To butcher Galileo - I refuse to believe that the same nature which endowed us with thinking minds is absent from our then using them. The universe is physical; this I conclude on a lack of evidence to the contrary. No phenomenon exists which is unexplainable by physical means. To see this as reductive is a tragic misunderstanding.

What's the purpose of life?

Live.


But that's just my opinion.
PS Rupert Sheldrake is a crank of the highest calibre.

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01-08-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 10:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  'Nature' led to us, and we are inescapably of it. To butcher Galileo - I refuse to believe that the same nature which endowed us with thinking minds is absent from our then using them. The universe is physical; this I conclude on a lack of evidence to the contrary. No phenomenon exists which is unexplainable by physical means. To see this as reductive is a tragic misunderstanding.

What's the purpose of life?

Live.


But that's just my opinion.
PS Rupert Sheldrake is a crank of the highest calibre.

I propose something similar to this "Nature asks us only to propagate, yet as we have evolved in such a way that we may transcend the limitations of mere biology (as awe inspiring as it is) and make for ourselves our own purpose. We make our own purpose beyond the biological or in some case in place of it. To paraphrase Dr Dawkins we are giant gene replicating machines but as we have moved past the simple survival stage can we not be something more? In this instance I believe our purpose is what we make it and nothing more or less, there is no God to tell us what to be or how to live We must make those decisions. To improve the world and the universe is a calling that we may choose to undertake but it is only by our actions and will do we come to such thing." Life is what you live, man. All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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01-08-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
tl;dr = too Luminon, didn't read.

Tongue

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01-08-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 11:08 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I propose something similar to this "Nature asks us only to propagate, yet as we have evolved in such a way that we may transcend the limitations of mere biology (as awe inspiring as it is) and make for ourselves our own purpose. We make our own purpose beyond the biological or in some case in place of it. To paraphrase Dr Dawkins we are giant gene replicating machines but as we have moved past the simple survival stage can we not be something more? In this instance I believe our purpose is what we make it and nothing more or less, there is no God to tell us what to be or how to live We must make those decisions. To improve the world and the universe is a calling that we may choose to undertake but it is only by our actions and will do we come to such thing." Life is what you live, man. All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.

Yes, but 'mere biology'? That's where I'd stop to consider...

Biology isn't something which can be left behind! No more than humans have ceased to be apes. Our survival and reproduction (collectively) have long been trivial. Our forays beyond that are to unexplored realms of thought. But the thoughts so characterized (and I do think I know what you mean by such) are yet the product of brains and their environments.

What I might note as of interest is that with the increasing complexity of our selves we have taken wider and wider spheres as falling within our responsibility; from strict kin-group loyalty to a sense of awareness of our whole species and indeed our whole biosphere. More room to fuck up in, sure, but progress of a sort.

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01-08-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 08:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry to interrupt your preaching reverend, but "devising a situation" is hardly the case. Science in the 20th and 21st centuries has proven that what human brains perceive to be "logical" (thus "philosophically correct") is of little to no use in the determining what Reality is all about. But you are "just adorable". Did you just take Philosophy 101 and just HAD to come and impose your views about it on people here ? Dodgy
I'm sorry to threaten your precious atheism and freedom to have no meaning of life. You certainly don't want another preacher to impose his meaning on you. If that's how you're seeing it, I have a good news, it's not a preaching. It's a joy of realization, of discovery of logical steps towards meaning. Don't take them if you don't want to. But in return, don't say there's no meaning. Just because empirical method doesn't provide it, doesn't mean another method can't.

It is true me and eastern and esoteric philosophy have a long history. Perhaps I just needed the good ol' western Philosophy 101 to put it all together. But there seems to be more than that. Even if anyone could do the mental gymnastics, few people actually do.

Your objection seems just the old dispute between empiricism and rationalism. There's no real dispute, just investigation of two different aspects of reality by two different methods. Logic is never in doubt, as long as the argument is complete. Of course, in empirical reality it is hardly ever complete, so we get things like the fuzzy logic of statistics and social dynamics. Isms are all right, as long as we don't apply them too broadly. Rationalism can indeed be applied only very narrowly. And philosophy only in the most general, fundamental terms. Today the world is so fucked up and full of powerful technology, that we indeed do need to revise the fundamental philosophic basis of our civilization.

(01-08-2013 08:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I run in a number of marathons every year, and I have yet to consult my Kant about which direction I need to go, to get to the finish line.
Impressive! But first there had to be someone to lay out the marathon's course, set the date and time and winning conditions. Without the philosophy's job, there would be lots of confused folks running around the country, calling themselves northists, southists, easternists and westernists according to the direction they chose to run the marathon in.
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01-08-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  That depends: Big Grin "My purpose"? What is you? What is asking this question? Where does the question come from? It came through your brain, but it has nothing to do with your brain. The question is not wet, pink, folded and squishy. Neither it is a question that wild animals ask.
You have to look for answer inside your own consciousness. Do not identify yourself with the body, the body is the means, not the meaning. When the proverbial Buddha points at the Moon, don't look at the finger.

As I said, reproduction is a purpose in itself, obviously. It makes things possible, but it does not try to give them meaning. Meaning is something that connects us with the rest of reality. We are connected to our ancestors in some way, but it is a very obscure way, so we have to keep looking for other connections to the world, other purposes and meanings. The best connection we can make is to connect the "highest" and the "lowest", to bring rise and progress to the "lowest".

What does that mean? As I said, you have to look for answer inside your own consciousness. The expanded consciousness should allow you to make a value judgement, to form a hierarchy of values and to bring a desire to express these values. If you can do that, you will find your purpose. So, the test:

If we are indeed open to the whole of reality, you can test that hypothesis through meditation and contemplation. As I said before, nothing has a purpose in itself, the ultimate purpose of everything is unity and harmony. So what is your personal or group way of recognizing these two and manifesting them? First recognizing.
Unity does not mean sameness, it means all interconnected. Harmony does not mean 50/50 ratio of everything, it means all dynamically shifting into the right place, time, proportion, in accordance with the right hierarchy of values.
Hierarchy of values is a very tricky, very philosophical thing to get right. I'd rather not go into detail, but I have a file stashed on it somewhere. The lower must always serve the higher, not vice versa. Recognizing what is lower and what higher, that's the tricky part. However you can find some solutions by realizing that the higher encompasses and includes the lower and therefore is in harmony with it, as long as the lower and lesser serves the higer and greater. There comes a point however, when two values are equal and therefore of the same value, where you can not make a compromise.

Everything is already united in harmony, the universe can be perceived as a giant organism. The ordering of anything in nature is completely subjective, a sea slug is not above or below me.

(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  That is not the human purpose of harmony and unity. The blind forces of nature do not have the same purpose as human consciousness. They have quite an opposite purpose - to seize the world, to replicate and fill it with biological life and organic matter and to evolve through death of the less adapted individuals. Yes, it is a legitimate purpose for the natural world, but not for us. It is legitimate, because it makes lots of other things possible. That is a good philosophic sign.

[Image: World%20Population.JPG]

I dunno, looks like quite a few people disagree with you.

(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  But we have rejected the nature the moment we decided to mourn for the dead, start a fire, wipe out predators, plow a field, write down knowledge, live beyond the average age of 30 and take contraception. (a special variety of fennel, now extinct, very popular in Roman Empire)
We rejected the nature and its purpose, we lost the thing that "protected" us from overpopulation and destroying the world. The humanity entered its adolescent phase, rebelling against the old order, but without yet having an order of its own. We can not possibly go back, we have to go forward, to figure out what it really means to be humanity, what is our function in the greater scheme of things. We are not to be subservient to nature, we must assume our stewardship over it and we must become aware of the greater world of philosophic truths that is above our human nature. That is our floor and ceiling, this is our place to stand.
If you know the full legend of Prometheus, each of us is to be like him, stealing not just fire from the proverbial gods, but also the divine law of right human relationships that was locked in Zeus's chest which the original Prometheus did not bring to humanity, because he didn't have the balls to break into Zeus's house.

That was just a metaphor, that for ages we were stuck with the "fire of the gods", but no idea what to do with it. But Greeks were right. Every sociologist will tell you, that our technical and scientific development is way ahead of our social and ethical development. The solution is not to give up technology and go back up the trees as the Unabomber terrorist mistakenly believed. It is to increase the effort on the front of philosophy and humanistic sciences and to bring them into the everyday life and institutions.
Does our politics and business not allow that ? Well then, away with them. We either do that, or we're all dead, together with all life on the planet. We'll scorch the place with nukes, sooner or later.

I'd tend to agree in practice with most of this but in reality it is the simplistic world of the automatons that carved us out a place on this planet and ultimately it will be the mindless automatons that are left when we are gone. It's silly to think that we are better or worse, higher or lower than anything else on the planet. We don't have a purpose outside of what we define, and while I like your preposed purpose you must realize that it is is simply that, there is no divine mandate. All the things you are talking about are good for the species long term and I hope people embrace them but the whole thing just boils down to survival and reproduction with a long term outlook.

(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Riiiight! By now I'd say it is obvious I trained myself to enter these states of consciousness. I don't need any drugs for that. I don't even think my brain does that chemically, because it's not addictive nor lingering.

But you have to understand this, these states of consciousness show us the possibilities ahead of us. They show what path leads to destruction and what leads to a golden age of humanity. Some patterns of human conduct are viable in the long run, some aren't. Some can develop into something greater, some can't. So I'd say this is a very legitimate field of inquiry, very important for the world. Do not be surprised, if people like me say, that the current legal definition of ownership or property rights and institutions and life style based on them are all completely wrong and threaten the survival of humanity. Do not start ringing the Communist alarm, the Communists made mistakes of their own.
I can see a solution, that is in harmony with all my philosophic senses, sensors and antennae that I can muster. Yes, it's Jacque Fresco's TVP, there's very little I could improve on this one. I am impressed by TVP. I hope that little fact alone will make an impression on you Tongue

Okay so half of that sounds like you just did 2 hits of acid and the other half is about a resource based economy, which I actually like the idea of, but I have to admit that it needs refinement. Assuming that there will be 0 crime, 0 vandalism, that there need be no incentive for work what so ever...all that is a bit naive....but yeah I think it is the direction we should be moving in, probably in conjunction with governance by machine intelligence.

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01-08-2013, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 02:27 PM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 10:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  'Nature' led to us, and we are inescapably of it. To butcher Galileo - I refuse to believe that the same nature which endowed us with thinking minds is absent from our then using them. The universe is physical; this I conclude on a lack of evidence to the contrary. No phenomenon exists which is unexplainable by physical means. To see this as reductive is a tragic misunderstanding.
I don't say there is anything unexplainable. I just say if American Founding fathers could weave a very nice constitution to conduct human affairs, by mere (as they put it) "nature and reason", then so can I.
And anyway, it remains to be seen what does this "physical" thing actually mean. The nature of reality is not yet determined and perhaps it never will entirely be. Make sure to tell me, when we pin down what is dark matter and dark energy. It is rather premature to appeal on physical universe, when we don't know what most of this physical stuff is.

(01-08-2013 10:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  What's the purpose of life?

Live.
But that's just my opinion.
Fine. I can't accept such an answer, because they taught me at the university informatics lessons that A = A is tautology. I've got to keep searching.

(01-08-2013 10:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  PS Rupert Sheldrake is a crank of the highest calibre.
He very well may be, I have only heard of his problems with metrology. I heard that metrologists kept giving him different records of numbers of what the scientists measured as gravity constant. Maybe this was a mistake of scientists not to accept that gravity "constant" fluctuates, maybe the gravity is just too difficult to measure and maybe it pushed him away from the science altogether.
Anyway, I think the story is interesting. I'll do some googling on this.

(01-08-2013 12:06 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Everything is already united in harmony, the universe can be perceived as a giant organism. The ordering of anything in nature is completely subjective, a sea slug is not above or below me.
Is it so? In any case, there is eternal change and so we must ask the eternal questions: who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? Were we once like this sea slug? Will the sea slug be as we are today?
Nature will give you answers, but these answers will never defy nature. Yet to be human means to be able to defy and re-define the nature. So don't ask the nature only. Is there anyone or anything else you can ask? Yes, I found the path to such answers through meditation and contemplation. This is however a big topic, so I'd rather not go into detail here. Let's just say it really helps with discernment and processing of ideas.

(01-08-2013 12:06 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I dunno, looks like quite a few people disagree with you.
That's not how I meant it, what you see on the graph are people refusing to submit to the nature and its order, refusing to be eaten by predators and diseases. That is all fine, but once we defy the old order of nature, we need a new order of our own. What you see on the graph is a biology out of order. And this much needed order is called demographic revolution and contraception.

(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I'd tend to agree in practice with most of this but in reality it is the simplistic world of the automatons that carved us out a place on this planet and ultimately it will be the mindless automatons that are left when we are gone. It's silly to think that we are better or worse, higher or lower than anything else on the planet. We don't have a purpose outside of what we define, and while I like your preposed purpose you must realize that it is is simply that, there is no divine mandate. All the things you are talking about are good for the species long term and I hope people embrace them but the whole thing just boils down to survival and reproduction with a long term outlook.
Ah, the good old empirical biologic reductionism. You might have a point before the industrial revolution, when 90 % of people lived as farmers, directly occupied with survival. Since then the world of thought opened to humanity and most of us don't see the primary sector economy very often. Most of our jobs have nothing to do with survival or reproduction. Given development of science, we'll get even a greater control of these.
I don't say we will live as brains in vats, but that we will cultivate our bodies, feelings and lives in a most artistic, creative and purposeful way. The reason why survival and reproduction still seems a problem is capitalism and socialism and money. These instruments do not allow us to solve global economic problems.

(01-08-2013 07:01 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Okay so half of that sounds like you just did 2 hits of acid and the other half is about a resource based economy, which I actually like the idea of, but I have to admit that it needs refinement. Assuming that there will be 0 crime, 0 vandalism, that there need be no incentive for work what so ever...all that is a bit naive....but yeah I think it is the direction we should be moving in, probably in conjunction with governance by machine intelligence.
I regret you think that I'd be satisfied with a naive, unrefined system. I wish there was a way to make obvious that there's more to TVP than meets the eye - presumably the content that took 75 years to develop, for a beginning. It wasn't all just buildings and vehicles, there's the social and philosophic aspect as well. The tragedy of the today is, that social scientists do not understand technology and natural scientists do not understand the human being. I would not be satisfied with TVP, if it did not include both.

Btw, why does acid come to your mind? That is so 20th century-ish! Dodgy Meditation and contemplation are ancient practices. I was hoping to be real classy, Patanjali style Cool
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01-08-2013, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 02:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(01-08-2013 12:04 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-08-2013 08:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry to interrupt your preaching reverend, but "devising a situation" is hardly the case. Science in the 20th and 21st centuries has proven that what human brains perceive to be "logical" (thus "philosophically correct") is of little to no use in the determining what Reality is all about. But you are "just adorable". Did you just take Philosophy 101 and just HAD to come and impose your views about it on people here ? Dodgy
I'm sorry to threaten your precious atheism and freedom to have no meaning of life. You certainly don't want another preacher to impose his meaning on you. If that's how you're seeing it, I have a good news, it's not a preaching. It's a joy of realization, of discovery of logical steps towards meaning. Don't take them if you don't want to. But in return, don't say there's no meaning. Just because empirical method doesn't provide it, doesn't mean another method can't.

It is true me and eastern and esoteric philosophy have a long history. Perhaps I just needed the good ol' western Philosophy 101 to put it all together. But there seems to be more than that. Even if anyone could do the mental gymnastics, few people actually do.

Your objection seems just the old dispute between empiricism and rationalism. There's no real dispute, just investigation of two different aspects of reality by two different methods. Logic is never in doubt, as long as the argument is complete. Of course, in empirical reality it is hardly ever complete, so we get things like the fuzzy logic of statistics and social dynamics. Isms are all right, as long as we don't apply them too broadly. Rationalism can indeed be applied only very narrowly. And philosophy only in the most general, fundamental terms. Today the world is so fucked up and full of powerful technology, that we indeed do need to revise the fundamental philosophic basis of our civilization.

(01-08-2013 08:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I run in a number of marathons every year, and I have yet to consult my Kant about which direction I need to go, to get to the finish line.
Impressive! But first there had to be someone to lay out the marathon's course, set the date and time and winning conditions. Without the philosophy's job, there would be lots of confused folks running around the country, calling themselves northists, southists, easternists and westernists according to the direction they chose to run the marathon in.

I knew it. You presume that atheists have "no meaning" in life. How monumentally ignorant, and childish, just because it's not what YOU have found meaningful, or else know so few atheists, (none ??) that you actually believe that crap. Everyone has, or is in the process of living out what they find meaningful. So YOU discovered *a* meaning for yourself, and can't help yourself but impose it on others. What are you, like 12 ? It sure sounds like preaching so far.

I assure you, no marathon planner EVER , not ever once, consulted a philosopher on how to plot out the course of the marathon. You did sound like a theist imposing your views in the OP, and now you proved it.

You don't threaten anything, and certainly not atheism in ANY way, by imposing your personal (hackneyed philosophical) opinions, which I see you did just discover. Yawn. You actually think many of us also haven't taken Philosophy 101 ?

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with Egor II.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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