This is the purpose of human life.
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03-08-2013, 03:56 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 05:01 AM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(02-08-2013 08:02 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Politicians don't solve problems. They review bills, and then vote for or against them. Then they review it again to see if it can be passed into law.

They can write their own bills, or review bills written by other people.
Laws don't solve problems either. Cicero said it right, the more laws, the more corrupt the state. Laws are today nothing but business privileges.

And politicians don't vote for bills according to their quality, but how much did they get paid by interest groups. My politics is controlled by godfathers of business mafia and it gathered the worst people of the nation. This year nearly literally shit had hit the fan and we don't have a few top government scandals a year, but literally a scandal every week, the amount of crime and dirt unimaginable anywhere except African banana republic.
Now imagine the U.S. Congress and presidency, where the money are orders of magnitude higher. Sure you remember with nostalgy the times when the greatest problem was, that the president got a blow job from someone else than his wife.


(02-08-2013 08:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Un-fricking-believable.
YOU need a purpose, and YOU need to impose YOUR projected purpose on the rest of humanity. Too bad, your holiness. The position in Rome was filled recently. You may have to wait a bit. You really are an annoying little presumptuous twit.
YOU project your fears on me. Are you scared of anyone who steps out of the line, because it might be the next pope or dictator? Well, I was born neurologically unable to stay in the line, I will stick out no matter what I do, so I might as well get good at it.
Anyway, what do you think is MY projected purpose that is so different from the rest of humanity? Can you repeat it back to me, what do you see, what got through to you?
What if we made a science out of meaning of life? Perhaps not a natural science with repeatable exactly the same data, but something on a level of behavioral psychology? Would you accept it then?

Have you seen me imposing anything on anyone? I'm like the most liberal anarchist guy around, thinking in the broadest and most general terms, so that it includes everyone. I came from free religious and esoteric upbringing and reached across to the atheist and skeptic community and continued to legal, political and economic fields. If I was a preacher, then in Unitarian Universalist church. How can you worry about this guy? I am not your enemy, I am an enemy of isms. Of the big memes which make people too sure. If religious isms can hold back your development, so can all other isms. Isms are like shoes, they allow you to walk, but you may grow out of them and they'll hurt your feet. Then you tear them off, sit down, nurse your wounds and curse all the shoemakers. For a time want nothing to do with putting on a new shoes and look suspiciously at everyone around who might be shoe salesmen. Well, I'm not a shoe salesman, I'm an amateur shoemaking hobby enthusiast. If everyone could make their own shoes to suit their needs, that would be great. The problem is, they can't, they don't have that skill. And they won't get it by pretending they're free to do so. They need education on how to think and judge for themselves. Lack of purpose in life is not freedom! Freedom from is not freedom to.

Firstly, most people want this and need some idea what is the world about, be they clueless parents or even more clueless lawmakers.
Secondly, people who don't, don't, that's it, nothing I can do about that through a verbal hobby. Thirdly, atheists and skeptics are not exempt of having a purpose and yes, a spirituality. I have some knowledge and skills in this area and so I feel compelled to contribute to the best of my abilities. But that's it, a skill. Great minds think alike. I don't want you to think alike, I want you to have a great mind.

From Dale's McGowan book Parenting Beyond Belief,
Rabbi Abraham Heschel writes,“The place to look for spiritual sustenance
is in everyday existence. Even the most simple deeds can be full of wonder.”
This reflection on wonder allows us to put spirituality in a different context
and frees us to acknowledge it in our lives, regardless of our orientation to re
ligious questions. My husband and I led a parent group where we asked the
participants to write on the word spirituality.Some thought of it as being “fully
connected—with nature, other people, and things.” Others called it “living a
life in a fully conscientious, caring way,” “recognizing that we’re part of a life
force that encompasses all,” or “the mysterious, the ‘awe-full,’ anything that
transcends the individual’s consciousness”—or simply “experiencing wonder.”
Thus broadly defined, secular parents can embrace the idea of spirituality and
understand religion as one attempt to speak to this human longing.
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03-08-2013, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 04:58 AM by Luminon.)
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I've been drinking, I'll give you a better answer later.
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This does not seem a productive attitude.
So is atheism. Sometimes we have to clear away the nonsense to make more room for truth.

(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 06:20 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ... an objective value judgement
And you.. don't see the problem in asserting this?
No, as long as the values are general enough to include all humanity and its environment.
Don't worry, I have seen a hundred times how a society can go to shit over a bad philosophy, economy, religion, government, environment, technology and so on and so on. I'm a reader of societal simulations after all, known as sci-fi. I've seen all the mistakes of Earth and possible Earths and other planets. [sarcasm]What do you think I'd do, choose an inferior race and blame all problems on it?[/sarcasm] ( No )

(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Mutually assured destruction is what prevented unilateral destruction.
See? Stupidity. What everyone actually wanted was a non-destruction and prosperity.

(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  They absolutely and fundamentally do. Good luck without knowledge.
I'm listening, great guru. Just don't
expect me to stop searching and thinking with the last page of a science journal. There's a lot of meaningful things in life that didn't make it to the journals.

(02-08-2013 08:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  People such as Hawking (and the others I mentioned, and many more besides) have spent a lot of time theorizing why the universe is as it is, why we perceive what we perceive, and why we are as we are. To dismiss that body of thought is asinine.
I don't dismiss that, I just don't find it useful to solve global problems and ensure survival of humanity on Earth. The NASA space program was doing just fine along the Cold War and all other wars. These people obviously know their shit, but searching for intelligent life in space does not make us an intelligent life on Earth. I just say, show me what they have to offer, before I get interested.
If there wasn't an end of old civilization, I might be more interested in this physics stuff, but the way the global situation is now, I save that for retirement.
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04-08-2013, 04:18 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(03-08-2013 03:56 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 08:02 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Politicians don't solve problems. They review bills, and then vote for or against them. Then they review it again to see if it can be passed into law.

They can write their own bills, or review bills written by other people.
Laws don't solve problems either. Cicero said it right, the more laws, the more corrupt the state. Laws are today nothing but business privileges.

And politicians don't vote for bills according to their quality, but how much did they get paid by interest groups. My politics is controlled by godfathers of business mafia and it gathered the worst people of the nation. This year nearly literally shit had hit the fan and we don't have a few top government scandals a year, but literally a scandal every week, the amount of crime and dirt unimaginable anywhere except African banana republic.
Now imagine the U.S. Congress and presidency, where the money are orders of magnitude higher. Sure you remember with nostalgy the times when the greatest problem was, that the president got a blow job from someone else than his wife.

"Now it's kind of rote in politics, but Lee was saying early: Perception is reality. He was ahead of his time." - Lee Atwater.

I know that. I also know how the politicians are constantly bombarded by "interest groups" who them selves are motivated and funded by many different people.

Also I know that by employing the tactics of psychoanalysis, politicians appeal to irrational, primitive impulses that have little apparent bearing on issues outside of the narrow self-interest of a consumer population.

These things are not hidden, they are public knowledge. However I do stand by my assertion that politicians do not solve problems, they simply pass laws.

[Image: 721px-Political_System_of_the_United_States.svg.png]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_gov...ted_States

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05-08-2013, 05:21 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(04-08-2013 04:18 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  These things are not hidden, they are public knowledge. However I do stand by my assertion that politicians do not solve problems, they simply pass laws.
I know of examples in my legal system, providing loopholes for legal crime, usury and tax evasion. Loopholes, which my politicians took hell of a time plugging.
They do not pass laws, they sell laws. Passing or not passing a particular law is both a commodity, going to the highest bidder. So what are they for? I must agree with Fresco, politicians do not change things, they're elected to keep things the same.

If politicians were any good, they would serve as a mere middlemen between the citizens and universities, as scientists-generalists between non-scientists and specialists. But they're no good. They're corrupt by money.
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05-08-2013, 06:45 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(05-08-2013 05:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-08-2013 04:18 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  These things are not hidden, they are public knowledge. However I do stand by my assertion that politicians do not solve problems, they simply pass laws.
I know of examples in my legal system, providing loopholes for legal crime, usury and tax evasion. Loopholes, which my politicians took hell of a time plugging.
They do not pass laws, they sell laws. Passing or not passing a particular law is both a commodity, going to the highest bidder. So what are they for? I must agree with Fresco, politicians do not change things, they're elected to keep things the same.

If politicians were any good, they would serve as a mere middlemen between the citizens and universities, as scientists-generalists between non-scientists and specialists. But they're no good. They're corrupt by money.

Yes. I would agree that in general that is the case. (Generalizing in that it is true for the majority but not for every single politician)

In this case I have nothing to offer in terms of solutions.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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07-08-2013, 04:00 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
Problem. Scientists have yet to prove that we exist. And what about the Buddhist ideology of 'not self'?

No, you don't have to agree with me on everything. You can argue all you want, since I welcome all viewpoints. Come! Come! Let's have a well-reasoned banter.
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07-08-2013, 06:37 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(07-08-2013 04:00 AM)ilgrigiogrey Wrote:  Problem. Scientists have yet to prove that we exist. And what about the Buddhist ideology of 'not self'?

Science demonstrates we exist, you are confusing that with solipsism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-08-2013, 07:29 AM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(07-08-2013 06:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 04:00 AM)ilgrigiogrey Wrote:  Problem. Scientists have yet to prove that we exist. And what about the Buddhist ideology of 'not self'?

Science demonstrates we exist, you are confusing that with solipsism.

I'd 'spain it to ya, but this thread ain't good enough, so I made my own. Tongue

"Not self" I expand into no-thing. god cannot exist for god would be just another thing, and the last thing I do before I die is forget Gwyneth Paltrow. Thumbsup

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07-08-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(05-08-2013 06:45 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Yes. I would agree that in general that is the case. (Generalizing in that it is true for the majority but not for every single politician)

In this case I have nothing to offer in terms of solutions.
Just try to go a little deeper. Let's say there is a decent politician in the office. It is possible, I knew one, awesome guy, who did awesome lectures last year on my school.

However, does a decent politician know how to solve problems? Does he know how to increase farming capacity of soil without depleting it? How to decrease the amount of traffic accidents? How to make minorities behave in a nice way? How to recycle waste? How to make people's electric energy usage more efficient?

No, because these are not political problems, these are technical problems. Perhaps all of our problems can be made technical and perhaps all solutions are technical. Technology is today better than anything else, it offers more solutions than anything. We're good at knowing the empirical reality and finding new solutions in it. We can't solve problems by economy, laws or politics, these are outdated practices, not based on empirical reality, which will never evolve like science and never will have the solving power of science.

So we don't need parties and politicians, we need scientists instead of governments. And as you see, scientists have no power nor general authority, either they say they have the data, or they don't. And each has authority only in the area of his competence. Scientists can solve the problems through direct application of science. Scientists invented smallpox vaccine and eradicated smallpox. If politicians were to do this, they'd pass a law against smallpox. Economists would then create a profitable market of smallpox permits from the govenrment. But there still would be smallpox.
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07-08-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: This is the purpose of human life.
(07-08-2013 06:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 04:00 AM)ilgrigiogrey Wrote:  Problem. Scientists have yet to prove that we exist. And what about the Buddhist ideology of 'not self'?

Science demonstrates we exist, you are confusing that with solipsism.
Science demonstrates something. How do we know that this something is real?

(basically, you need noetic proof to establish logical grounds for the scientific method, I'd have to pull out my old notes)
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