This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
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26-05-2013, 06:33 AM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 04:06 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Better yet, do away with the monetary system and there is no need for patents.

Since no one would be motivated to create anything?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-05-2013, 06:42 AM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(25-05-2013 01:59 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Here is a clear example of the patent system being used for profit while stifling life saving medical research.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-05-pa....html#nwlt

[quote]
At the center of the case are genes BRCA1 and BRCA2, which made headlines recently when actress Angelina Jolie announced that she had tested positive for mutations of the gene and opted for a preventive double mastectomy to reduce her risk of breast cancer. After the genes were sequenced at the University of Utah, patents to them were licensed to Myriad Genetics through a tech transfer.

Myriad has excluded outside companies and universities from studying the genes and testing for mutations that could lead to breast and ovarian cancer. Instead, the company charges more than $3,000 to administer tests itself.

There is no doubt in my mind that intellectual property (I mean this to encompass all inventions, discoveries etc) should be protected and fairly compensated for.

But there is also no doubt in my mind that medicines, and impactful technological advances and discoveries should not be hoarded and unacted upon.

How to justly resolve this situation is the question.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-05-2013, 07:18 AM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 06:33 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 04:06 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Better yet, do away with the monetary system and there is no need for patents.

Since no one would be motivated to create anything?

So if there was no money you'd sit on your ass doing nothing?
No. You'd start doing what you want. Something that motivates you.
Like help someone research something.

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26-05-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
Without a monetary system you'd fall back to a barter system, which is less efficient. Money is durable and readily exchangeable for goods of value. It's a good thing. You can reasonably argue I think about how they money supply is managed or should be managed, but to switch from money to barter would I think lead to a world that is much less fun to live in than the one we live in now.
That is unless you are talking about developing a post-scarcity economy, which still seems some way off being feasible.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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26-05-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
There is a very simple solution.

If a Good is important to the public in general, and a company has invented it, the public compensates (rewards) the company for the effort and uses the Good.

Specifically here, the government purchases the patent from the drug company and allows for universal manufacture and distribution of the product and market competition set the optimal price.

Problem solved.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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26-05-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
How much would the government pay... or would the government regulate a percentage of market-optimised sales? What about products that require multiple inventions such that adding percentages together would eliminate all profit? Maybe all goods should come with a standard 10% inventor's fee that is split between all intellectual property holders of the item? What about items that don't really have an inventor? Should the 10% be dropped for them? How should the 10% be divided up between the different inventors who contributed? Should the cost of getting the invention to market be considered at all? Who is actually going to get the product to market? Will it be the government who bought the intellectual property rights? What about products that are given away for free? How would you ensure compensation to the IP originators in that case?

I'm not seeing what's simple about this model, Thomas.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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26-05-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 12:11 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Without a monetary system you'd fall back to a barter system, which is less efficient. Money is durable and readily exchangeable for goods of value. It's a good thing. You can reasonably argue I think about how they money supply is managed or should be managed, but to switch from money to barter would I think lead to a world that is much less fun to live in than the one we live in now.
That is unless you are talking about developing a post-scarcity economy, which still seems some way off being feasible.

I LMAO when people talk about return to the barter system or being slaves to money (i.e. the current Pope). Expect 2 billion people to die from starvation with a return to the barter system in the first year, almost all of these would be the very poor. Money is no more evil than a spreadsheet with numbers. It is nothing more than a way to coordinate value between two goods that could be traded. Trade is good. Anything that stops trade is bad. Money facilitates trade. Money is good. Money feeds the poor with the excess caused by efficiency.

There will never be a post-scarcity economy. People have insatiably wants. An individual will never be satisfied with what they have as long as they see someone with something that they don't have. The economic justice perspective only looks up, never down. If someone makes more then you they don't deserve it. If they make less it's because you work harder and deserve more. Human nature will never change and it is universally true. Collectivism meet its demise because of this one human trait and it will never work for human society.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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26-05-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 01:57 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  How much would the government pay... or would the government regulate a percentage of market-optimised sales? What about products that require multiple inventions such that adding percentages together would eliminate all profit? Maybe all goods should come with a standard 10% inventor's fee that is split between all intellectual property holders of the item? What about items that don't really have an inventor? Should the 10% be dropped for them? How should the 10% be divided up between the different inventors who contributed? Should the cost of getting the invention to market be considered at all? Who is actually going to get the product to market? Will it be the government who bought the intellectual property rights? What about products that are given away for free? How would you ensure compensation to the IP originators in that case?

I'm not seeing what's simple about this model, Thomas.

Can't just put a general number on that process. What is a drug, software program, worth to society? How about a drug that cures lung cancer with just a single pill? We could calculate the benefit to society fairly well. If the drug company keeps a patent they choke supply, make lots of money and many go without the drug. If the government compensates up front everyone gets the generic drug (10% the cost on average). Lots of people are saved.

The whole thing is not to kill the private inventor's market. Governments cannot invent like the private market. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some have argued for the government to do this through a grant system. BAD IDEA. Corrumption out the ass. Waste-Waste-Waste. Let the private sector fail at its cost. Inventors will take "better" risks if it's their money up front.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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26-05-2013, 03:27 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2013 03:30 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 07:18 AM)Caveman Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 06:33 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Since no one would be motivated to create anything?

So if there was no money you'd sit on your ass doing nothing?
No. You'd start doing what you want. Something that motivates you.
Like help someone research something.

Man I'm glad someone else other than Egor is clairvoyant and knows what I might do next! Thanks Caveman Thumbsup

Do me a favor and never presume what I might or might not do on a personal level, deal?

Had you followed the conversation or asked for clarification you would have surmised that I was talking about corporations and you would have understood my comment to mean that corporations don't invest billions of dollars on R&D out of a sense of altruism, they invest primarily to make a profit.

Are we good here?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-05-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: This is why the patent system needs to be dismantled.
(26-05-2013 03:27 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 07:18 AM)Caveman Wrote:  So if there was no money you'd sit on your ass doing nothing?
No. You'd start doing what you want. Something that motivates you.
Like help someone research something.

Man I'm glad someone else other than Egor is clairvoyant and knows what I might do next! Thanks Caveman Thumbsup

Do me a favor and never presume what I might or might not do on a personal level, deal?

Had you followed the conversation or asked for clarification you would have surmised that I was talking about corporations and you would have understood my comment to mean that corporations don't invest billions of dollars on R&D out of a sense of altruism, they invest primarily to make a profit.

I was obviously not talking about you individually.

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