This makes me sick . . .
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23-08-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: This makes me sick . . .
(23-08-2015 01:36 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  He's right, though. Even if religion disappeared tomorrow, many of that sort of human would find other excuses to be horrible to one another. However, we must also consider that it was religious belief (in demons) that specifically led to this abuse.

When you take "the will of God" out of the equation, you still have ideas that have potential for abuse, but they are easier to deal with because no one treats those ideas as anything more than a concept of mankind, and as fallible as men clearly are. When you keep "the will of God" in the equation, the actors are capable of saying they are operating on a moral plane beyond that of man's reason, and it makes it harder to combat bad ideas.
While I believe that may be the vehicle, I don't think it was the motive.

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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23-08-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: This makes me sick . . .
(23-08-2015 01:20 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 11:38 AM)Thameron Wrote:  Sad indeed, however religion is a symptom not a cause. Those with the desire to do ill to their fellow humans would find a rationalization even if there no books talking about imperceptible magic people to give them one. Political affiliation, love, money hell even sports work just as well as excuses to do wrong. Human nature and culture are at the root of this and they both change only with long, sustained effort.

I disagree, this wasn't the result of a one-off nutjob with a penchant for disfiguring women, this involved many people who believed they were doing the will of god. It wasn't human nature or culture that lead them to believe she was possessed by demons, it was religion and only religion

And if the culture was different the religious might very well have responded to the prospect of demon possession with "I'll pray for you" or some similar trope instead of this atrocity. The culture supported (or at least failed to eliminate) violence against divergent members in the name of nebulous unproven assertions by authority figures. Demon possession claims also do not need a religion, just a superstitious belief. It would be nice if we could eliminate those as well of course, but eliminating religion would not automatically eliminate superstition as a bonus. I also suspect the people raping her were not doing it for her benefit to rid her of demons. They were doing it because they wanted to and that was the convenient excuse. The religion was not at fault. It happened because the line between people and savage animals is a thin one and one easily crossed.

The truth will not set you free. It will only let you see your chains.
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23-08-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: This makes me sick . . .
(23-08-2015 04:13 PM)Thameron Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 01:20 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  I disagree, this wasn't the result of a one-off nutjob with a penchant for disfiguring women, this involved many people who believed they were doing the will of god. It wasn't human nature or culture that lead them to believe she was possessed by demons, it was religion and only religion

And if the culture was different the religious might very well have responded to the prospect of demon possession with "I'll pray for you" or some similar trope instead of this atrocity. The culture supported (or at least failed to eliminate) violence against divergent members in the name of nebulous unproven assertions by authority figures. Demon possession claims also do not need a religion, just a superstitious belief. It would be nice if we could eliminate those as well of course, but eliminating religion would not automatically eliminate superstition as a bonus. I also suspect the people raping her were not doing it for her benefit to rid her of demons. They were doing it because they wanted to and that was the convenient excuse. The religion was not at fault. It happened because the line between people and savage animals is a thin one and one easily crossed.

Your argument does not convincingly exonerate religion in this matter.
Religion was, for reasons already stated, at least partly responsible.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: This makes me sick . . .
(23-08-2015 04:13 PM)Thameron Wrote:  The culture supported (or at least failed to eliminate) violence against divergent members in the name of nebulous unproven assertions by authority figures.

I love this phrasing! It is the principle difference between rational atheism and other things that are often ascribed to be traits of atheism, like the "violence against divergent members in the name of unproven assertions by authority figures" seen in the Soviet Union and related communist countries, and is one of the reasons I think it is so important that rationalism and freedom of thought be championed in this world.

Because, as you say, we are animals, and only deliberately elevating ourselves above those bestial instincts with civilized thinking eliminates that sort of brutality, and then only if carefully maintained by the efforts of thinking people.

Sadly, there are too many examples of when it turns back the other way, when you have too many people who are deliberately enticed to give up rational thinking in favor of authoritarianism/followership (and the woo that goes with it), which unfortunately is something religion is very good at facilitating in a population until there are enough people who agree on insane things to empower them to enact this kind of barbarity on those in the "divergent" group(s).

In that sense, I think religion is directly responsible, even though it was an excuse for these people to indulge their basest animal instincts as well.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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