This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
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24-11-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 03:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 02:51 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If three independent investigation's results (civil, state and federal) convince the grand jury that he was in the right, end of story...that is our system. The local population and influx of agitators from across the country state that they dont care about facts and evidence, they want the officer indicted or they are going to flip cars and burn down the city....not the correct response.

Funny how the ignorant and uneducated dont care about facts and evidence, they will embrace passion and emotion every time...even in the face of superior, empirical evidence to the contrary...kind of delusional really....reminds me of theists.

I say ignorant and uneducated because the educated and intelligent wouldn't be flipping cars and burning down the city because the facts indicate different than their skewed, biased, uninformed, and most likely racist opinion.

Is there a word for "victim blaming" on the level of whole populations?
Consider

Bigotry? Oppression? Consider

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24-11-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
These people don't care about the kid that was shot (and neither do I). If they truly cared he wouldn't have been in a position where he was robbing stores and reaching for police pistols. He'd be in school or work or whatever.

These people are just pissed off about their own situation. This town is primarily black but those with any power in the town are white. The black residents are pissed off about this, not the kid being shot. Their lives suck and so they want someone to blame and so they blame white people instead of taking responsibility for their own lives.

They think that if they riot their lives will improve because somehow white people wont run the show any more and somehow that will make everything better, because black cops never shoot people and black businessmen never pay minimum wages...

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24-11-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 03:49 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 03:38 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  maybe, but if the "victims" are actually the perpetrators over and over and over, and the facts substantiate that. then it isnt victim blaming it is holding them accountable. Even though the actions of a small demographic group perform the majority of violent crime in the US, doesnt allow us to profile or label the whole group simply because they are overly represented in the criminal statistics. facts are facts though. This is where evidence and not emotion need to come into play.

You might want to throw some whys in there so it's not just dog-whistling.

I majored in crim justice, very familiar with the statistics actually. But statistics don't reflect the contributing factors of socio-economic status, single family homes, education, culture of ignorance and high recidivism rate through the doors of a beleagured and racist crim just system.

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24-11-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 03:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 03:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Is there a word for "victim blaming" on the level of whole populations?
Consider

Bigotry? Oppression? Consider

Both pieces of the pie I am sure, the world isn't a perfect place and by far neither is the US crim just system. But if the evidence and three investigations reflect the officer was in the right, then the officer was in the right. No further protesting or rioting required.

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24-11-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 03:35 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 03:30 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  While I agree with goodwithoutgod if the evidence does really point to the officer acting in self defense, I still feel fear what will happen if they do not kick the officer to jail. Ferguson is still a heap of emotions. If he isn't, the reaction by the people will not be pretty. I'm in a news station to know that the court has made its decision but as of now hasn't announced it. There's three possible locations for our live shot so the more experienced filming person is going in case we have to act fast (to move to a more active spot if need be, gotta look good for live tv). Whatever goes down in Ferguson could likely spark riots in other areas of Missouri, if not the whole United States.

If the facts support the officer, and I believe he is going to resign because there is no way he and his family would be safe to remain there, then that should be the end of it. I know how it works though and the riots will begin, If I was in charge I would immediately install martial law and a curfew the moment it started, you cant allow mass rioting in the US because a group of citizens dont agree with the facts, especially since they dont even know the facts, just going on emotion, emotion being fueled by outside instigators.

If they find him guilty of something based on evidence, then let the law do what it is designed to do, and hold him accountable.

Of course. There's no way he would be safe there if the facts support him and he resigns. They might have to move him quickly and quietly though. I mean, even if they manage to contain the riots and have people obey curfew, there's no telling what people would do if they figure out where he goes. Probably would have to change his name too, I'd think. But the power of a mass of emotional people, that's what scares me. Not so much upon him but among each other and probably against the police. No telling what injuries will/could happen, both for the rioters and the men and women trying to keep them in line. I'm sure the riots can be contained and there will be measures taken to try to prevent outside sources to come in and fuel their rage but still. Sorry, I guess I'm just naturally thinking of the worst of the worst somehow, remembering the craziness back in August. Hopefully now the government is anticipating the worst and is prepared so hopefully it won't get out of hand, at least in Ferguson. And yes, if he is guilty, at least the law will do what it's suppose to do.

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24-11-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 04:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 03:49 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You might want to throw some whys in there so it's not just dog-whistling.

I majored in crim justice, very familiar with the statistics actually.

Yes, you've mentioned that before. That is not what I was referring to.

(24-11-2014 04:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  But statistics don't reflect the contributing factors of socio-economic status, single family homes, education, culture of ignorance and high recidivism rate through the doors of a beleagured and racist crim just system.

That is precisely what I was referring to. Simply "holding people accountable" does not address the conditions leading to the actions they are then held to account for.

That this case may turn out to be somewhat justified does not change people's concerns. Riots stem from the psychology of an angry mob. So why is there a mob, and why is it angry?

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24-11-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 04:16 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 03:35 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If the facts support the officer, and I believe he is going to resign because there is no way he and his family would be safe to remain there, then that should be the end of it. I know how it works though and the riots will begin, If I was in charge I would immediately install martial law and a curfew the moment it started, you cant allow mass rioting in the US because a group of citizens dont agree with the facts, especially since they dont even know the facts, just going on emotion, emotion being fueled by outside instigators.

If they find him guilty of something based on evidence, then let the law do what it is designed to do, and hold him accountable.

Of course. There's no way he would be safe there if the facts support him and he resigns. They might have to move him quickly and quietly though. I mean, even if they manage to contain the riots and have people obey curfew, there's no telling what people would do if they figure out where he goes. Probably would have to change his name too, I'd think. But the power of a mass of emotional people, that's what scares me. Not so much upon him but among each other and probably against the police. No telling what injuries will/could happen, both for the rioters and the men and women trying to keep them in line. I'm sure the riots can be contained and there will be measures taken to try to prevent outside sources to come in and fuel their rage but still. Sorry, I guess I'm just naturally thinking of the worst of the worst somehow, remembering the craziness back in August. Hopefully now the government is anticipating the worst and is prepared so hopefully it won't get out of hand, at least in Ferguson. And yes, if he is guilty, at least the law will do what it's suppose to do.

Yeah i truly hope the people who live there can safely move on with their lives.

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24-11-2014, 04:30 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 04:18 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 04:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I majored in crim justice, very familiar with the statistics actually.

Yes, you've mentioned that before. That is not what I was referring to.

(24-11-2014 04:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  But statistics don't reflect the contributing factors of socio-economic status, single family homes, education, culture of ignorance and high recidivism rate through the doors of a beleagured and racist crim just system.

That is precisely what I was referring to. Simply "holding people accountable" does not address the conditions leading to the actions they are then held to account for.

That this case may turn out to be somewhat justified does not change people's concerns. Riots stem from the psychology of an angry mob. So why is there a mob, and why is it angry?

Absolutely Cjlr, and I wasn't trying to come across as a know it all. There are a LOT of contributing factors that make up the racial tension within america, the "black experience" if you will. I am very familiar with it as we unfortunately look into statistics, and the causal effect of race, demographics in general, societal influence, the legal system, police training, racism etc etc...it isnt something that will be solved in Ferguson. My input is I assert that every officer in the country should be wired for video and audio at all times while on duty. Surprisingly there is a lot of resistance to this from both sides. The defense attorneys don't want it because their clients wont be able to get away with hearsay, the officers don't want it because they already feel like everything they do and say is judged and second guessed daily...but I feel it is an important item in which to help the system become more fair and unbiased, on both sides. if an officer is wired, he is going to ensure he is acting professional and doing things by the book, win for the citizen, if the officer is wired and faces another case where his actions are questioned, all they have to do is press play and watch and hear what really happened. win for the officer. Less BS law suits, less BS false allegations of abuse, less actual abuse..everyone wins. Again, sadly, both sides dont want it, but I know major agencies are doing it, and ferguson helped push that forward. Something good to be claimed out of this tragedy.

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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24-11-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
(24-11-2014 04:30 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(24-11-2014 04:18 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, you've mentioned that before. That is not what I was referring to.


That is precisely what I was referring to. Simply "holding people accountable" does not address the conditions leading to the actions they are then held to account for.

That this case may turn out to be somewhat justified does not change people's concerns. Riots stem from the psychology of an angry mob. So why is there a mob, and why is it angry?

Absolutely Cjlr, and I wasn't trying to come across as a know it all. There are a LOT of contributing factors that make up the racial tension within america, the "black experience" if you will. I am very familiar with it as we unfortunately look into statistics, and the causal effect of race, demographics in general, societal influence, the legal system, police training, racism etc etc...it isnt something that will be solved in Ferguson. My input is I assert that every officer in the country should be wired for video and audio at all times while on duty. Surprisingly there is a lot of resistance to this from both sides. The defense attorneys don't want it because their clients wont be able to get away with hearsay, the officers don't want it because they already feel like everything they do and say is judged and second guessed daily...but I feel it is an important item in which to help the system become more fair and unbiased, on both sides. if an officer is wired, he is going to ensure he is acting professional and doing things by the book, win for the citizen, if the officer is wired and faces another case where his actions are questioned, all they have to do is press play and watch and hear what really happened. win for the officer. Less BS law suits, less BS false allegations of abuse, less actual abuse..everyone wins. Again, sadly, both sides dont want it, but I know major agencies are doing it, and ferguson helped push that forward. Something good to be claimed out of this tragedy.

Yes, those are all very fair comments.

I was responding more to the bits like "influx of agitators" and "flip cars and burn down the city". I do agree here that there is a change that pissed-off people will respond in a very stupid manner. But even in frustration I think that's a poor way to phrase things, if only because of where I've seen others take that rhetorical starting point.
(news article comment sections... *shudder*)

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24-11-2014, 05:05 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2014 05:09 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: This week could spell nationwide riots in major cities (Ferguson,MO outcome)
Ah, unfortunately those comments were due to a basis in truth. There are agitators who came ot ferguson for the express reason to incite unrest, and to take advantage/exploit the situation for their anti-government, or anti cop, or anti black or anti white agendas. They can hide amongst the protestors and sow discontent very easily. In fact a couple were arrested who were trying to gather bomb materials to do some sort of attack post grand jury results.

flipping cars and burning the city is sadly the actions that tend to happen in these racially charged situations. When the officers involved in the rodney king beating were not charged with a crime, the city burned, the citizens were assaulted based on color of their skin, and looting and rioting ensued..

par for the course

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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