Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
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04-01-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
Quote:CLARA:
But Jewish theology would be more or less the same as Islamnic theology, wouldn't it? Concerning trinity, original sin etc. Would you agree? Did you actually study Islam thoroughly and then decided that it's not the truth?

Correct Clara - Jewish theology is closer to Islam than Christianity which adds a more of a pagan dimension (gods dying and reborn)
I have studied Islam and Christianity quite thoroughly. as well as Judaism very deeply (and some eastern religions) -

I decided Islam is not the truth because of few reasons - firstly I don't find the Quran very convincing and it tends to ramble on way too much. In some cases the Quran does make direct errors even though when you point this out to Islamic scholars they start arguing about the Arabic or that the section is supposed to be metaphor etc....
The rhetoric in the Quran is also frustrating about threats in the afterlife & punishment when the Quran actually lacks substance in the form of evidence. A very frustrating read if one sees all the threats and promises of paradise as rhetorical literature.
However my wider rejection of theism is not specific to the QUran but due to the poor evidence for the existence of a personal God whether the concept of a personal God is philosophically incoherent or every philosophical argument fails.

In Islam much weight is given to the Kalam cosmological argument for God - this fails due to many fallacies. The God design arguments fail. Miracle claims fail as testimony is often nor reliable. Ontological arguments fail...Teleological arguments fail...revelations fail....(Mormon, Bible, Quran...)

You get the idea - there is basically no valid reason or evidence to believe in a deity. Faith is an illogical incoherent way to live ones life.
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04-01-2014, 04:47 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
Quote:
(04-01-2014 04:11 PM)Clara Wrote:  So am I right if I say that you all think that this is just a coincidence and not something that was done on purpose?
Funny though, this is as much as I can remember the only topic of Harun Yahya where he didn't lie.

I don't understand your point Clara about Harun Yahya.
All I know about Harun Yahya is his understanding of evolution is pathetic and retarded.

By the way - your posts dis not come out properly - try breaking them up to single quote sections or remove the quotes and then individually replace quoted to relevant passages & post again. Use EDIT don't repost otherwise clutter clutter clutter.
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04-01-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
(04-01-2014 04:11 PM)Clara Wrote:  So am I right if I say that you all think that this is just a coincidence and not something that was done on purpose?
Funny though, this is as much as I can remember the only topic of Harun Yahya where he didn't lie.

Do you mean the universe Clara as a coincidence not done on purpose ?

Why should the universe be presupposed to have a purpose ???
The universe just *IS* - it neither lacks a purpose nor has a purpose. Its not the sort of thing that has can have a purpose.
Only creatures such as humans (or other biological systems) have "purposes" which in philosophical jargon is called "teleology"

The purpose of simple biological systems is survival and reproduction, once we get more complex then other desires, motives, goals and needs require to be fulfilled and the purposes become more complex - especially with humans.
The "purpose" is an emergent phenomenon of many parts of the brain, body, other organisms and environment eg ability to forecast and plan for the future, have memory of the past, have desires & needs etc.

Eg a patient with severe Alzheimer's is not going to demonstrate much in terms of a life purpose because many of those required emergent phenomena are absent (eg memory & ability to plan for future - activities usually necessary for a purpose)

Conclusion - most humans have purposes unless very mentally damaged/severe brain trauma/coma etc.
However the universe as a whole need not have a purpose.
Even if the concept of purpose does not apply to the universe as a whole, part of the universe can have a purpose - namely you and me and all complex life forms.

In addition a purpose does not need to be handed all ready made from the sky.
We can choose & create purposes we are passionate about and love, to maximize our life well being and contribution to others & relationships.
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04-01-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
Quote:CLARA:
So am I right if I say that you all think that this is just a coincidence and not something that was done on purpose?
Funny though, this is as much as I can remember the only topic of Harun Yahya where he didn't lie.

In addition saying the universe is either coincidence vs purposeful is a false dichotomy created by the William Lane Craig's and Harun Yahya's apologetic nonsense.

Like I said in previous post it is humans who have purposes (and other complex biological life with minds)
Coincidence is also an aspect of human perception based on how we access probabilities and make associations between events.

The concepts of purpose or coincidence cannot apply to the universe as a whole (the entire set "The universe") - its simply not the right sort of terminology
.
Parts of the universe may claim other parts came by coincidence eg life forms in the universe claiming other life forms came either coincidentally or purposefully)

As for the universe(s) as a whole (the entire set of existence) we are limited on what we can say. When I mean universe I am talking about the set of all things which exist - that can include any hypothesis about multiverses, parallel universes or whatever)

#1. It is just a brute fact and the universe exists (B.Russell type claim)

#2. It exists necessarily (logical necessity) - Spinoza like claims or objectivists
(neither coincidence not purposeful - it just HAS to exist because a true ontological nothing is incoherent, something MUST exist always eternally - that something is the universe - irrelevant if it is the current universe we see today or some other manifestations.)

3. The universe does come from a type of nothing in lawrence krauss type language - but his nothing is really still a something so its like #2 or #1. I don't really understand Lawrence Krauss because his nothing is some sort of quantum flux which produces universes - doesn't seem like a true nothing but relative to my daily life it is definitely NOTHING !

#4 There is no room for creator Gods - any God just creates more questions and problems and is a false claim more like a god of the gaps than providing any answer to origins. Placing God at the beginning is just fallacious reasoning and lazy thinking.
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04-01-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
Baruch, to clarify: I actually just meant to ask you think that this "pharao" vs. "king" thing is a coincidence or done on purpose because the author knew enough history about Egypt!

I will read and answer your posts about the universe tomorrow, right now I have to sleep Smile
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04-01-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
(04-01-2014 02:18 PM)Clara Wrote:  ...
I would actually be relieved to ask someone what he thinks about my first question Smile But I am really not sure that you would want that. So far everyone I confronted with it did not even take me serious.

(by the way, I am German so I hope my English is not too bad!)
...

Good point, given that I (despite Makle's best effort) didn't take this question seriously.

But, in the words of the song...

"Tell me baby 'cause I need to know now oh because

My OCD is killing me ... "

PM it if you prefer.

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05-01-2014, 06:48 AM
RE: Thoughts about the Bible and the Koran
(04-01-2014 02:19 PM)Clara Wrote:  Sorry for this mess - for any reason my post comes out empty although I wrote something of course!
Or is it just me who can't see anything?

You messed up your quote tags, most likely.

If you post something and it comes out empty, go to edit the post, and read through it carefully, making sure that each quote tag has a start and end tag, that they're nested properly, and that they aren't broken (such as leaving off a bracket due to copy-pasting: [QUOTE).

If you go to edit any of those empty posts, you'll see the text is all there, it just doesn't render in the forum due to the syntax errors.
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