Thoughts on BLM
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24-05-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 04:02 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Black on Black Crime as a talking point hugely predates the Black Lives Matter movement.

Yes, I know that. But that isn't the context here, which rather shears meaning from my point, which is about BLM's priorities.

I absolutely agree that police abuses should be stopped, and especially the disproportionate abuses against minorities.

I'm not against BLM; I think the cause has a good mission. But I also think there's bigger fish to fry when it comes to young black men being killed by acts of violence.
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24-05-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 02:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  ...
Police work is dangerous and unpredictable, and somewhat like being in a war, all the time. It's not surprising if they grow calloused. And it's not surprising to see one snap here and there. It's not exactly a cushy job.

And therein lies at least part of the root cause of the problem.

Policing, fire-fighting, nursing etc. are peacetime activities... dealing with incidents / accidents (unplanned interruptions to normal (peaceful) life).

In war time, the rules change. War is about 'continuity' (of the tribe / nation / other scoietal groupings) and the same can be said for Disaster Recovery ... we call in the emergency services and later the salvage and recovery teams who will work until we have achieved 'back to normal'.

In wartime (and during disasters), no one excepts to be able to complain about food, water, gas or electricity supplies being interrupted and automatically get resolution in the same way as would be expected during peacetime.

If the police are behaving like soldiers (using wartime rules) they are treating civilians as the enemy. If the civilians believe that the police are using wartime rules (or at least acting outside of peacetime rules (the law)), they will likewise behave accordingly... which is why we would feel fearful when engaged in "street interactions with police".

The ultimate root cause is that Murikan culture has evolved from pioneer settlers, gamblers and gold-rush speculators, ranchers and gun-slingers ... when resources are scarce, move along a bit and take what's there before anyone else does and protect what's yours until someone else takes it.

You've ended up with Hedge Fund managers and Walmart acting like frackers... stripping out resources and then moving on leaving ruin and ghost towns in their wake. If you were affected by the 2008 greed-rush, you'll be able to relate to the ghost town that is your bank account.

Europe ran out of space long ago so developed socialism with varying degrees of success. Murika ain't mature enough for that yet. The rest of the world is their prairie, their mining town, their gambling saloon.

Cultural change comes through numerous means (revolutionary or evolutionary) and raising awareness is one way. Black Lives Matter are doing that.

btw, for non-Murikans, the NAACP is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

Murika has socialised their policing and their fire-fighting services and one day will socialise their nurses (sooner rather than later you you vote for Bernie) but they have had more success with fire-fighters than with the police.

It's still a young country. Give them time.

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24-05-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 06:18 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 02:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  ...
Police work is dangerous and unpredictable, and somewhat like being in a war, all the time. It's not surprising if they grow calloused. And it's not surprising to see one snap here and there. It's not exactly a cushy job.

And therein lies at least part of the root cause of the problem.

Policing, fire-fighting, nursing etc. are peacetime activities... dealing with incidents / accidents (unplanned interruptions to normal (peaceful) life).

In war time, the rules change. War is about 'continuity' (of the tribe / nation / other scoietal groupings) and the same can be said for Disaster Recovery ... we call in the emergency services and later the salvage and recovery teams who will work until we have achieved 'back to normal'.

In wartime (and during disasters), no one excepts to be able to complain about food, water, gas or electricity supplies being interrupted and automatically get resolution in the same way as would be expected during peacetime.

If the police are behaving like soldiers (using wartime rules) they are treating civilians as the enemy. If the civilians believe that the police are using wartime rules (or at least acting outside of peacetime rules (the law)), they will likewise behave accordingly... which is why we would feel fearful when engaged in "street interactions with police".

The ultimate root cause is that Murikan culture has evolved from pioneer settlers, gamblers and gold-rush speculators, ranchers and gun-slingers ... when resources are scarce, move along a bit and take what's there before anyone else does and protect what's yours until someone else takes it.

You've ended up with Hedge Fund managers and Walmart acting like frackers... stripping out resources and then moving on leaving ruin and ghost towns in their wake. If you were affected by the 2008 greed-rush, you'll be able to relate to the ghost town that is your bank account.

Europe ran out of space long ago so developed socialism with varying degrees of success. Murika ain't mature enough for that yet. The rest of the world is their prairie, their mining town, their gambling saloon.

Cultural change comes through numerous means (revolutionary or evolutionary) and raising awareness is one way. Black Lives Matter are doing that.

btw, for non-Murikans, the NAACP is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

Murika has socialised their policing and their fire-fighting services and one day will socialise their nurses (sooner rather than later you you vote for Bernie) but they have had more success with fire-fighters than with the police.

It's still a young country. Give them time.

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Well, just chatting with the cops several times a week over a few years, they do live in war. They are being shot at, stabbed with syringe needles, spit at and attacked. They have to expect this around every corner.

I think that wearing cameras that are permanently turned on would solve a lot of issues. I know, it's an invasion of their privacy at times (conversations during boring stake outs and the like) but it would be invaluable in settling disputes about their conduct. (Not to mention the usefulness in courts).

Re. the poverty and resulting atmosphere in black communities: De-criminalizing and regulating drugs and prostitution would be an incredible help.

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24-05-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 01:31 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 01:28 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I agree that black-on-black crime is the elephant in the room which BLM is ignoring.

You seem to have a point here. There is a lot of black-on-black crime.

Which does not, in the slightest, justify the police shooting blacks on sight for such "crimes" as a broken tail light or an expired license plate sticker.

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24-05-2016, 09:51 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 07:52 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 01:31 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  You seem to have a point here. There is a lot of black-on-black crime.

Which does not, in the slightest, justify the police shooting blacks on sight for such "crimes" as a broken tail light or an expired license plate sticker.

At all.
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25-05-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 07:52 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Which does not, in the slightest, justify the police shooting blacks on sight for such "crimes" as a broken tail light or an expired license plate sticker.

"On sight"? Citation please.

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25-05-2016, 05:47 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 02:51 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  The black on black crime "point" is a red herring. Statistically, just like you are more likely to be killed by somebody you know, you are also more likely to know more people with a similar ethnicity.

Think about this: Why is white on white crime never mentioned even though it has similar numbers as black on black crime?

Edit:
Article Wrote:These data cover all violent crimes except murder, but the number of murders is tiny compared to other violent crimes.
Look at these numbers from 2013 (if this works): source
[Image: NCFS-Table.jpg]

Of white victims, the LARGE majority of offenders were white (56%). With black victims, we see similar numbers (62.2% of offenders are black). Pointing out that black people hurt black people means nothing. And the fact that it is brought up so often only supports a terrible notion: a general (and racist) idea that black people are inherently violent.

That all being said, I'm not "on board" with Black Lives Matter. I think racism is definitely in the US and a huge problem. But the sentiment that Black Lives Matter ... which has undertones of "most cops are racist", just creates unneeded hostility.

Other charts from the source above:
[Image: WhiteOffenders.jpg]
[Image: BlackOffenders.jpg]
[Image: HispanicOffenders.jpg]

Looking at those percentages alone doesn't tell the whole story. You need to look at the number of crimes too. I've pulled the numbers from the FBI's UCR and done some statistical analysis myself. Please note though that I didn't access the data for this post and I'm talking from memory so my numbers might be off by a point or two. Please also note that while these numbers sound horrible we are actually just talking about a tiny portion of the population.

Whites make up about 78% of the US population. Less than 13% of the population is black. Despite that blacks commit about half of the violent crime. A black man is 6 times more likely to be murdered than a white man. About 90 percent of the time he will die as a result of the actions of another black man.

White men are also twice as likely to be murdered by a black man than a black man is to be murdered by a white man.

Crime, especially violent crime, is a problem for everyone. But black on black crime will remain a bigger problem for the black community than white on white crime is for the white community until the percentage of percentage of blacks committing crimes against blacks falls to something close to the percentage of whites committing crimes against whites. Right now it isn't even close.

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25-05-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 02:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  Yes, there is a lot of black on black crime. But that doesn't make it ok for blacks or anyone to be mistreated by police.

That said, police mistreat others too. The homeless could probably tell a story or two.

I was hanging out a lot with cops when I was training dogs. I never heard a racist word out of that particular group. But I did hear a lot of calloused, abusive remarks about perps and the public in general. Enough to make me myself fear street interactions with police. I don't know if it was just male bragging (this particular group was all male) or if they actually felt and acted that way.

Police work is dangerous and unpredictable, and somewhat like being in a war, all the time. It's not surprising if they grow calloused. And it's not surprising to see one snap here and there. It's not exactly a cushy job.

The problem as I see it isn't so much that a police officer snaps ever now and then as they are seldom held accountable when they do. If they were held to the same standards they expect from the rest of us it might give them cause to pause before pulling the trigger.

Did you know that in the average year US police kill more unarmed civilians than die in the line of duty?

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25-05-2016, 06:03 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
It's not going to stop until one removes the money from the drug and sex trade, and that can only be done with legalization and regulation.

Secondly, opportunity needs to be introduced. The path out of poverty needs to go through education. How to make this exciting and palatable - I don't know.

There should be incentives for on-the -job training, for both the business and the trainee.

But, the most important thing is to remove the money from drugs and sex. As long as that is the easiest way to make money, it will thrive and nothing will change.

Changing police behavior is not anywhere near enough to change the situation.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-05-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(25-05-2016 06:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  It's not going to stop until one removes the money from the drug and sex trade, and that can only be done with legalization and regulation.

Secondly, opportunity needs to be introduced. The path out of poverty needs to go through education. How to make this exciting and palatable - I don't know.

There should be incentives for on-the -job training, for both the business and the trainee.

But, the most important thing is to remove the money from drugs and sex. As long as that is the easiest way to make money, it will thrive and nothing will change.

Changing police behavior is not anywhere near enough to change the situation.


I agree. Changing police behavior isn't in and of itself going to do much to reduce crime among the general population. It might save a couple of lives of people that didn't have to die at the hands of the police though. It couple also reduce the number of false convictions by a few thousand.

But changing police behavior could help to restore some trust in a system that is obviously rigged against minorities and the poor. And that could help to reduce crime...

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