Thoughts on BLM
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25-05-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(25-05-2016 06:13 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 06:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  It's not going to stop until one removes the money from the drug and sex trade, and that can only be done with legalization and regulation.

Secondly, opportunity needs to be introduced. The path out of poverty needs to go through education. How to make this exciting and palatable - I don't know.

There should be incentives for on-the -job training, for both the business and the trainee.

But, the most important thing is to remove the money from drugs and sex. As long as that is the easiest way to make money, it will thrive and nothing will change.

Changing police behavior is not anywhere near enough to change the situation.


I agree. Changing police behavior isn't in and of itself going to do much to reduce crime among the general population. It might save a couple of lives of people that didn't have to die at the hands of the police though. It couple also reduce the number of false convictions by a few thousand.

But changing police behavior could help to restore some trust in a system that is obviously rigged against minorities and the poor. And that could help to reduce crime...

Just saying, it's not really going to change the situation. Only providing different paths out of poverty to the young will change the situation permanently.

As long as police operate in a high crime, high violence environment, they are going to be jumpy.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-05-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(25-05-2016 05:47 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 02:51 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  The black on black crime "point" is a red herring. Statistically, just like you are more likely to be killed by somebody you know, you are also more likely to know more people with a similar ethnicity.

Think about this: Why is white on white crime never mentioned even though it has similar numbers as black on black crime?

Edit: Look at these numbers from 2013 (if this works): source
[Image: NCFS-Table.jpg]

Of white victims, the LARGE majority of offenders were white (56%). With black victims, we see similar numbers (62.2% of offenders are black). Pointing out that black people hurt black people means nothing. And the fact that it is brought up so often only supports a terrible notion: a general (and racist) idea that black people are inherently violent.

That all being said, I'm not "on board" with Black Lives Matter. I think racism is definitely in the US and a huge problem. But the sentiment that Black Lives Matter ... which has undertones of "most cops are racist", just creates unneeded hostility.

Other charts from the source above:
[Image: WhiteOffenders.jpg]
[Image: BlackOffenders.jpg]
[Image: HispanicOffenders.jpg]

Looking at those percentages alone doesn't tell the whole story. You need to look at the number of crimes too. I've pulled the numbers from the FBI's UCR and done some statistical analysis myself. Please note though that I didn't access the data for this post and I'm talking from memory so my numbers might be off by a point or two. Please also note that while these numbers sound horrible we are actually just talking about a tiny portion of the population.

Whites make up about 78% of the US population. Less than 13% of the population is black. Despite that blacks commit about half of the violent crime. A black man is 6 times more likely to be murdered than a white man. About 90 percent of the time he will die as a result of the actions of another black man.

White men are also twice as likely to be murdered by a black man than a black man is to be murdered by a white man.

Crime, especially violent crime, is a problem for everyone. But black on black crime will remain a bigger problem for the black community than white on white crime is for the white community until the percentage of percentage of blacks committing crimes against blacks falls to something close to the percentage of whites committing crimes against whites. Right now it isn't even close.
It'd be interesting to see a crime chart with HH income and ethnicity. And a chart with just HH income and ethnicity. Maybe even throw in Urban/Sub-urban/Rural designators. I think that will tell more of the story.

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10-06-2016, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2016 06:01 AM by MrKrispy601.)
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 04:18 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Bringing up black on black crime in the context of "Black Lives Matter" undermines the sentiment--and really the point--of the entire movement. Perhaps the movement should be worded better.

But,

"There is a problem with a system that has left black people disproportionately in poverty, leading to heightened crime -- which leads to negative stereotypes that add to an already historical stigma on black people, which even further leads to black victims who are victimized by law enforcement (or outright racism) because they are stereotyped as violent, criminals, or simply "less human""

is probably too much of a mouthful.

What the movement is trying to address isn't the instances of violence against black people. It's trying to address a system that encourages it, hides it, and in some ways causes it. At least that's how I see it. I don't consider myself part of the movement.

Forgive my late response.

I am NOT saying that we should not be addressing the problem of blacks being killed by cops. It is a problem and I am not saying that it is not. I am simply saying that the BLM blew it. Before the negative outlook on this movement, it was hard not to support it but it blew its chance to really do something. What I am getting at when I reference the black on black crime is that we had the platform to really tackle this issue as well because just like the cop killings this is a huge problem in our communities. The fact that you simply try to divert this back without answering the question shows this. You wrote an entire post with data to support which I do appreciate but you did not answer the question. Should we not be tackling this problem just as hard as the cop killings. Do not all black lives matter? Should we not get just as angry at that? I do not get why bringing this up in this fashion still makes it difficult to understand.
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10-06-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
I lived in Oakland when the Panthers were active there. They did some stupid stuff and got a lot of very bad press all over the place, but they certainly raised awareness, shined a light on the issues, and also got a whole lot of black youth to go to college.

Overall I think they achieved a lot of what they were going for in the end, they got a ball rolling.

Sometimes such movements get so much bad press, both from the mainstream press and their own people, that they seem to have made little impact at the time. But - look back and there was a ripple effect that did a lot of good.

The original gay liberation was the same. Castro street was notorious and drew more bad press than you can shake a stick at. But - it got things rolling.

Whether BLM is doing any good - check back in a decade.

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10-06-2016, 09:40 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(10-06-2016 08:17 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 04:18 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Bringing up black on black crime in the context of "Black Lives Matter" undermines the sentiment--and really the point--of the entire movement. Perhaps the movement should be worded better.

But,

"There is a problem with a system that has left black people disproportionately in poverty, leading to heightened crime -- which leads to negative stereotypes that add to an already historical stigma on black people, which even further leads to black victims who are victimized by law enforcement (or outright racism) because they are stereotyped as violent, criminals, or simply "less human""

is probably too much of a mouthful.

What the movement is trying to address isn't the instances of violence against black people. It's trying to address a system that encourages it, hides it, and in some ways causes it. At least that's how I see it. I don't consider myself part of the movement.

Forgive my late response.

I am NOT saying that we should be addressing the problem of blacks being killed by cops. It is a problem and I am not saying that it is not. I am simply saying that the BLM blew it. Before the negative outlook on this movement, it was hard not to support it but it blew its chance to really do something. What I am getting at when I reference the black on black crime is that we had the platform to really tackle this issue as well because just like the cop killings this is a huge problem in our communities. The fact that you simply try to divert this back without answering the question shows this. You wrote an entire post with data to support which I do appreciate but you did not answer the question. Should we not be tackling this problem just as hard as the cop killings. Do not all black lives matter? Should we not get just as angry at that? I do not get why bringing this up in this fashion still makes it difficult to understand.
Sorry, what's the question? Is it this part?
Quote:Should we not be tackling this problem just as hard as the cop killings. Do not all black lives matter? Should we not get just as angry at that?
Well, yeah all lives matter and we should do what we can to save them. I just think "black on black violence/crime" is a coined term that does a disservice to black people. I feel it implies, on some level, that it is the blackness that is causing/influencing violence. Problematic pockets of violence and crime won't be solved by pointing out that the offenders are black. Because you can't solve blackness. But if you point out that the offenders are in poverty stricken neighborhoods, or that they don't have a high graduation rate, or that they have gang connections, or that they have drug-motivation. Those are problems you can start to solve. "black on black" doesn't tell me how to even start addressing the issue. Ya know, unless I assume that it is blackness that is causing it.

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10-06-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
I don't see that it imputed the cause to the skin-color, myself. I've always simply understood is as a descriptor. Given the socioeconomic injustices delivered upon blacks in America, it seems to me that anyone reading that term and thinking that the race is the cause of the violence is probably projecting their own racism.
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10-06-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(10-06-2016 09:40 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:17 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Forgive my late response.

I am NOT saying that we should be addressing the problem of blacks being killed by cops. It is a problem and I am not saying that it is not. I am simply saying that the BLM blew it. Before the negative outlook on this movement, it was hard not to support it but it blew its chance to really do something. What I am getting at when I reference the black on black crime is that we had the platform to really tackle this issue as well because just like the cop killings this is a huge problem in our communities. The fact that you simply try to divert this back without answering the question shows this. You wrote an entire post with data to support which I do appreciate but you did not answer the question. Should we not be tackling this problem just as hard as the cop killings. Do not all black lives matter? Should we not get just as angry at that? I do not get why bringing this up in this fashion still makes it difficult to understand.
Sorry, what's the question? Is it this part?
Quote:Should we not be tackling this problem just as hard as the cop killings. Do not all black lives matter? Should we not get just as angry at that?
Well, yeah all lives matter and we should do what we can to save them. I just think "black on black violence/crime" is a coined term that does a disservice to black people. I feel it implies, on some level, that it is the blackness that is causing/influencing violence. Problematic pockets of violence and crime won't be solved by pointing out that the offenders are black. Because you can't solve blackness. But if you point out that the offenders are in poverty stricken neighborhoods, or that they don't have a high graduation rate, or that they have gang connections, or that they have drug-motivation. Those are problems you can start to solve. "black on black" doesn't tell me how to even start addressing the issue. Ya know, unless I assume that it is blackness that is causing it.

Again you fail to see the point and are diverting away from the question. You again went into how pointing out a problem is doing a disservice to black people. The black on black crime rate is not just some coined term and its surely not a pocket of violence. The numbers are alarming and you and everyone using this flaccid arguments know it. But just like so many of my fellow black people you insist on playing this victim card. Oh and by the way look at your last few sentences very carefully.

But if you point out that the offenders are in poverty stricken neighborhoods, or that they don't have a high graduation rate, or that they have gang connections, or that they have drug-motivation. Those are problems you can start to solve. "black on black" doesn't tell me how to even start addressing the issue. Ya know, unless I assume that it is blackness that is causing it.

These are issues the BLM movement could cover just as hard as they cover the handful of deaths by cops. This also could be used against you to say that maybe the cop killings aren't driven by "color" instead it doesn't address the big problem of a corrupt police forces looking to impose their will on ANYONE who doesn't obey.
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11-06-2016, 03:56 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
I have a tomato allergy so yes, I prefer to have mushrooms.

That's my thought on the subject.

Yes

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11-06-2016, 08:48 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
The Black Lives Matter activists I've seen so far were criminal and violent subhuman trash. I'm not at all surprised that people don't care about them being shot by the police.

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11-06-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(11-06-2016 08:48 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The Black Lives Matter activists I've seen so far were criminal and violent subhuman trash. I'm not at all surprised that people don't care about them being shot by the police.

I wouldn't be that brutal, but yes most black lives matter activists follow a pattern I have noticed about all modern "civil rights" movements. It is humans wanting to be known as a hero. People in BLM just want to be seen as the great heros of black people. But the worst things have had the best intentions.

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