Thoughts on BLM
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12-06-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(24-05-2016 12:13 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Black Lives Matter(BLM) is a group that defines itself as a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. Police and vigilantes. On the groups website it mentions nothing but cases of black men and women being harassed or in some cases killed by these two groups. Now although I do agree that the recent killings of the cases mentioned do deserve some recognition I think its rather peculiar that only these groups were mentioned.

May 23 2016 Edward Nero was cleared of all charges against him in the death of the Freddie Gray. Most are calling for justice to be dealt(well the justice they want). The previous day (in the exact same city where Freddie Gray's death took place) Cortez Brown was shot and later died at a Siana hospital. The suspect, Brandon Lucas has been charged with first degree murder of Brown. Both the suspect and the victim were black.

Now this of course is no isolated incident. There are many cities throughout the U.S. where black on black killings are embarrassingly high and have been for some time.

Police were responsible for 102 unarmed black people in 2015 in the entire country. In the same year 366 black men were killed in the city of Chicago. Of that number police were responsible for 11. Of the 366, 67 of the suspects were black themselves and only 7 from other groups. That's right 287 of those killed don't even have suspects. Meaning the number can only go up for black men killed by other black men.

Now there are other cities that have similar statistics such as Baltimore, Oakland, New Orleans, and New York but for the sake of time I will invite you to do your own research.

Now I bring up these statistics not to say that the wrongful killings of black people across the country do not deserve attention or proper justice. Quite the contrary. I also fear for my life when pulled over so I understand this problem does exist. My problem is with the lack of attention to our own communities as black people. It is laughable that we cry over just a handful of instances against cops and not even mention the death of others. On the black lives matter website there is not one article or mention of deaths black men and women committed by other black men and women. I have seen many different demonstrations and protest in response to the killings of black people by cops. Many people tweet and discuss about this issue. But not a march, demonstration, or protest of this problem we have in our own communities.

This BLM movement is nothing more than the new NAACP which did nothing but exploit their own culture for hopes of a nice check. They are nothing more than hypocrites.

For those of you who support this movement, have you ever thought that we do not get the respect we seek due to black people not even respecting themselves, their communities, or anyone else for that matter? Until we can actually show respect to each other how can we demand respect from those outside of our culture?

Any group and or movement has to have parameters. I was deeply involved in the Antiwar movement about the same time as was Bernie Sanders. People often said what about this and what about that, as a poet of the time said and since I am half way down the bottle I cannot at present remember his name, but he said If that is what worries you fight for it, defend it and we won't deny you your right to do so, but that isn't our cause at present. Something like that. That big guy with the beard that I met on the train after the Kent State killings be the police.
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12-06-2016, 08:45 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(12-06-2016 08:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Why would black people know justice better than white people?
I definitely agree with that. There is no way black people know justice better than white people. Black people are fucked-up, and white people have to fix it, because black people do not know how to do it on their own; otherwise they would be doing it instead of pleading with the racist white people's government to fix it.

That is the grievance that #BlackLivesMatter charges the government, and society - white people are prejudice and that black people are oppressed by the evil white devils.

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12-06-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(12-06-2016 05:22 PM)natachan Wrote:  \
What bothers me is when you bring up that EVERYONE is hurt by abuse of authority they minimize or dismiss the harm against those not in the "in group" of black Americans. Or they say it isn't as urgent. As if overhauling the system won't help everyone.

There was another forum I sometimes pop into that had a police brutality thread. It was one of those forums where you can change your thread titles at any point, and at one point apparently a cop killed a white guy and the title changed to indicate this still somehow fell under the umbrella of BLM.

That always stuck with me as a particularly crummy thing to do. Taking someone's death, someone whose death runs completely against your message, and using it to try and further your message just kind of sickens me every time I glance at the title.

I always think I should pop into the thread and read a bit, see if maybe I'm just misinterpreting the title...but I'm always kind of afraid about what I'll find in there if it turns out I'm not reading it wrong.

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13-06-2016, 06:11 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(12-06-2016 06:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 10:28 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Again you fail to see the point and are diverting away from the question. You again went into how pointing out a problem is doing a disservice to black people. The black on black crime rate is not just some coined term and its surely not a pocket of violence. The numbers are alarming and you and everyone using this flaccid arguments know it. But just like so many of my fellow black people you insist on playing this victim card.
I clearly asked you what this "question" is and you didn't clarify. I still am not sure.

And no, I'm not saying pointing out the problem is doing a disservice to black people, I'm saying repeating the coined phrase "black on black violence/crime" is perpetuating a negative view of black people. Perpetuating the constant racism I see when reading what people say about black people and how our "kind", "can't even stop from killing each other."

I already posted numbers that show crime related to ethnicity.

And saying I'm playing a victim card is just ridiculous
1. I'm trying to make a point that the widespread usage of the phrase IS contributing to a negative view of black people.
2. I'm trying to address the actual root causes of the crime/violence, rather than jumping to an ethnic description of the victim or offender.
3. You might think I'm passionate about this, but I'm not at all. I'm just speaking my opinion on the matter.
4. I do NOT support the BLM movement.

I have no issues with researching and addressing the issue of crime/violence where the accused and the victim are both black. That's great. I just think
1. The phrase "black on black crime/voilence" is actually doing harm by becoming so widespread and so quick to think of.
2. Pointing out that there are black victims and black offenders while people are trying to fight for a completely different cause (such as BLM) is disruptive to what that cause is trying to achieve.

My apologies you are correct in saying that I did not pose the question. Allow me to now.

If we are willing to hold cops and others who harm and wrong black people accountable for their actions, should we not also hold our own people equally accountable for the actions they take that wrong our people as well?

You see, this is not about WHO does the harm so much as it is about the prosperity of the black community. Anyone who is against this prosperity is also responsible for slowing the progress of this goal. This is why it is completely relevant to bring the statistics of black on black crime. It does not help the growth therefore it is something deemed worthy of mentioning in relation to this topic. I understand you feel this is negative to bring up and it is understandable. But that is simply what it is - a feeling. Those do us no good when it comes to rational thought. Any one with half a brain would see that the amount of time spent on the issue of cop killings(which is only numbered below a few hundred) outweighs the huge number of killings done by black people. This makes absolutely no sense hence why this movement is not respected by many. Those involved with this movement seem to have not matured intellectually to see this argument. Instead they cower and deflect this issue as though you are either racist for bringing it up or as you have put it "feels" like it gives off a negative impression. I urge you to not see this as a blow at you personally as it is not. I have the utmost respect for you. However, this line of thinking does nothing but halt progress.
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13-06-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(12-06-2016 08:19 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 12:13 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Black Lives Matter(BLM) is a group that defines itself as a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. Police and vigilantes. On the groups website it mentions nothing but cases of black men and women being harassed or in some cases killed by these two groups. Now although I do agree that the recent killings of the cases mentioned do deserve some recognition I think its rather peculiar that only these groups were mentioned.

May 23 2016 Edward Nero was cleared of all charges against him in the death of the Freddie Gray. Most are calling for justice to be dealt(well the justice they want). The previous day (in the exact same city where Freddie Gray's death took place) Cortez Brown was shot and later died at a Siana hospital. The suspect, Brandon Lucas has been charged with first degree murder of Brown. Both the suspect and the victim were black.

Now this of course is no isolated incident. There are many cities throughout the U.S. where black on black killings are embarrassingly high and have been for some time.

Police were responsible for 102 unarmed black people in 2015 in the entire country. In the same year 366 black men were killed in the city of Chicago. Of that number police were responsible for 11. Of the 366, 67 of the suspects were black themselves and only 7 from other groups. That's right 287 of those killed don't even have suspects. Meaning the number can only go up for black men killed by other black men.

Now there are other cities that have similar statistics such as Baltimore, Oakland, New Orleans, and New York but for the sake of time I will invite you to do your own research.

Now I bring up these statistics not to say that the wrongful killings of black people across the country do not deserve attention or proper justice. Quite the contrary. I also fear for my life when pulled over so I understand this problem does exist. My problem is with the lack of attention to our own communities as black people. It is laughable that we cry over just a handful of instances against cops and not even mention the death of others. On the black lives matter website there is not one article or mention of deaths black men and women committed by other black men and women. I have seen many different demonstrations and protest in response to the killings of black people by cops. Many people tweet and discuss about this issue. But not a march, demonstration, or protest of this problem we have in our own communities.

This BLM movement is nothing more than the new NAACP which did nothing but exploit their own culture for hopes of a nice check. They are nothing more than hypocrites.

For those of you who support this movement, have you ever thought that we do not get the respect we seek due to black people not even respecting themselves, their communities, or anyone else for that matter? Until we can actually show respect to each other how can we demand respect from those outside of our culture?

Any group and or movement has to have parameters. I was deeply involved in the Antiwar movement about the same time as was Bernie Sanders. People often said what about this and what about that, as a poet of the time said and since I am half way down the bottle I cannot at present remember his name, but he said If that is what worries you fight for it, defend it and we won't deny you your right to do so, but that isn't our cause at present. Something like that. That big guy with the beard that I met on the train after the Kent State killings be the police.

I agree that a movement has to have parameters. What was the name of this group again? BLACK LIVES MATTER.......I will not insult your intelligence by finishing the sentiment.
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14-06-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
While the black community certainly has its own violence issues, I'm bothered by the "all lives matter" response because it is a way of dismissing the very real concerns of BLM. I saw an excellent way of representing this idea, which I will quote rather than butchering the paraphrase:

Imagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any. So you say "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment -- indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!

The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share", which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That's the situation of the "black lives matter" movement. Culture, laws, the arts, religion, and everyone else repeatedly suggest that all lives should matter. Clearly, that message already abounds in our society.

The problem is that, in practice, the world doesn't work the way. You see the film Nightcrawler? You know the part where Renee Russo tells Jake Gyllenhal that she doesn't want footage of a black or latino person dying, she wants news stories about affluent white people being killed? That's not made up out of whole cloth -- there is a news bias toward stories that the majority of the audience (who are white) can identify with. So when a young black man gets killed (prior to the recent police shootings), it's generally not considered "news", while a middle-aged white woman being killed is treated as news. And to a large degree, that is accurate -- young black men are killed in significantly disproportionate numbers, which is why we don't treat it as anything new. But the result is that, societally, we don't pay as much attention to certain people's deaths as we do to others. So, currently, we don't treat all lives as though they matter equally.

Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase "black lives matter" also has an implicit "too" at the end: it's saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying "all lives matter" is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It's a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means "only black lives matter," when that is obviously not the case. And so saying "all lives matter" as a direct response to "black lives matter" is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.

TL;DR: The phrase "Black lives matter" carries an implicit "too" at the end; it's saying that black lives should also matter. Saying "all lives matter" is dismissing the very problems that the phrase is trying to draw attention to.



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14-06-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 11:24 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While the black community certainly has its own violence issues, I'm bothered by the "all lives matter" response because it is a way of dismissing the very real concerns of BLM. I saw an excellent way of representing this idea, which I will quote rather than butchering the paraphrase:

Imagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any. So you say "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment -- indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!

The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share", which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That's the situation of the "black lives matter" movement. Culture, laws, the arts, religion, and everyone else repeatedly suggest that all lives should matter. Clearly, that message already abounds in our society.

The problem is that, in practice, the world doesn't work the way. You see the film Nightcrawler? You know the part where Renee Russo tells Jake Gyllenhal that she doesn't want footage of a black or latino person dying, she wants news stories about affluent white people being killed? That's not made up out of whole cloth -- there is a news bias toward stories that the majority of the audience (who are white) can identify with. So when a young black man gets killed (prior to the recent police shootings), it's generally not considered "news", while a middle-aged white woman being killed is treated as news. And to a large degree, that is accurate -- young black men are killed in significantly disproportionate numbers, which is why we don't treat it as anything new. But the result is that, societally, we don't pay as much attention to certain people's deaths as we do to others. So, currently, we don't treat all lives as though they matter equally.

Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase "black lives matter" also has an implicit "too" at the end: it's saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying "all lives matter" is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It's a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means "only black lives matter," when that is obviously not the case. And so saying "all lives matter" as a direct response to "black lives matter" is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.

TL;DR: The phrase "Black lives matter" carries an implicit "too" at the end; it's saying that black lives should also matter. Saying "all lives matter" is dismissing the very problems that the phrase is trying to draw attention to.



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Sure, but the problem is the nobody got anything to eat, it is just that one kid yelled the loudest. Again it is not a race thing, but a people thing.

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14-06-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(11-06-2016 08:48 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The Black Lives Matter activists I've seen so far were criminal and violent subhuman trash. I'm not at all surprised that people don't care about them being shot by the police.

Well that's a heartless and disgusting thing to say...

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14-06-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 11:40 AM)Losty Wrote:  Well that's a heartless and disgusting thing to say...
Have you seen what they've been up to this year? These people assault and intimidate political dissidents, start violent riots, destroy police cars, block ambulances from reaching the people wounded during the course of said riots and disrupt political rallies and university lectures. They have no respect for free speech, the freedom of assembly and the right to bodily integrity. Yeah, I stand by what I said, they're subhuman trash and I couldn't care less what happens to them.



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14-06-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
I don't care what they've been up to. Being a criminal doesn't make someone subhuman or trash. There's this neat thing called empathy...

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