Thoughts on BLM
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14-06-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 12:12 PM)Losty Wrote:  I don't care what they've been up to. Being a criminal doesn't make someone subhuman or trash. There's this neat thing called empathy...

Well it depends on what type of criminal.

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14-06-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 12:12 PM)Losty Wrote:  I don't care what they've been up to. Being a criminal doesn't make someone subhuman or trash. There's this neat thing called empathy...
So what does make a person subhuman or trash? I would think being a violent thug who beats other people up for having different political beliefs and risks them dying by preventing medical professionals from treating them would qualify.

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14-06-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 12:26 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 12:12 PM)Losty Wrote:  I don't care what they've been up to. Being a criminal doesn't make someone subhuman or trash. There's this neat thing called empathy...
So what does make a person subhuman or trash? I would think being a violent thug who beats other people up for having different political beliefs and risks them dying by preventing medical professionals from treating them would qualify.

Vosur, you're starting to sound like a bona fide conservative. How about we get together and write the criminal code suggestions for atheists to campaign as being the better approach to building good community - I'm getting tired of waiting for the blacks to do it. My new buddy, RocketStudent76, will probably get onboard; and of course, GirlyMan, and some of the others will probably want to be apart of it.

What do you say?

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14-06-2016, 04:10 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
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14-06-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 12:26 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 12:12 PM)Losty Wrote:  I don't care what they've been up to. Being a criminal doesn't make someone subhuman or trash. There's this neat thing called empathy...
So what does make a person subhuman or trash? I would think being a violent thug who beats other people up for having different political beliefs and risks them dying by preventing medical professionals from treating them would qualify.

Nothing. Nothing makes a person subhuman or trash. Nothing justifies treating another person like they're subhuman or trash.

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14-06-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(12-06-2016 11:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Mike Brown was no thug. Anyone who knew him said he was just a regular kid, and generally a nice one.
Well, they would wouldn't they? Family and friends wouldn't say otherwise. I'm betting they didn't know about his shoplifting either.

Quote:The video of him getting in the face of the shopkeeper shows that he only turned on the guy after he physically tried to bar his exit.
WTF? So you're claiming it was partially the shopkeeper's fault for trying to restrain a shoplifter? That's verging on victim-blaming. What would you expect the shopkeeper to say? "Oh, my apologies boys, but I can't really let you walk out of here without paying. Oh... no money? That's fine then, off you go. Have a nice day".

Quote:The boys tried to buy cigars (doubtless to make blunts out of) but were denied because they weren't 18, so they took them... wrong, but hardly thuggish.
You do know that Brown attempted to wrestle the officer's service weapon from his holster, and it discharged twice? But you don't describe that as thuggish. Sorry, but I do—the officer could easily have been killed.

Quote:I don't know too many teenagers who would have behaved differently, under the circumstances.
That's where we differ. I don't know many (if any) teenagers that would have acted as did Michael Brown. We obviously move in different social circles. And the "circumstances" were.....? He was caught shoplifting—hardly anybody else's fault.

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14-06-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 07:40 PM)Losty Wrote:  Nothing makes a person subhuman or trash. Nothing justifies treating another person like they're subhuman or trash.

Paedophilia does. I'd be happy to throw the switch.

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14-06-2016, 08:39 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 07:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 11:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Mike Brown was no thug. Anyone who knew him said he was just a regular kid, and generally a nice one.
Well, they would wouldn't they? Family and friends wouldn't say otherwise. I'm betting they didn't know about his shoplifting either.

I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion at all. A starry-eyed parent, perhaps, but practically everyone I saw mention him talked about that. And I'm sure they all saw the video of the shoplifting. If you watch that video, it's clear the boys decided to shoplift (a stupid, petty thing any teen might do, and you know it) in defiance, after trying to pay for it and being denied. It hardly makes those kids a monster-- the fact that you see a monster in Mike Brown, whereas if I had done such a thing (can't say I wouldn't have, in my teen years) no one would be trying to call me a thug or whatever, just an idiot teenager, shows me that you do not really see people of dark skin with the same equanimity you would to the less-tan. Do not feel alone in this; it is a well-studied phenomenon, that people subconsciously assign older ages to black bodies and ascribe more sinister motives to them than they would to blonde-blue kids in similar situations. You can protest and take umbrage to this all you like, but that is what I see happening here, as plain as day, and you would do well to take a moment to stop and consider your potential unconscious bias in the way you are evaluating the facts.

(14-06-2016 07:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:The video of him getting in the face of the shopkeeper shows that he only turned on the guy after he physically tried to bar his exit.
WTF? So you're claiming it was partially the shopkeeper's fault for trying to restrain a shoplifter? That's verging on victim-blaming. What would you expect the shopkeeper to say? "Oh, my apologies boys, but I can't really let you walk out of here without paying. Oh... no money? That's fine then, off you go. Have a nice day".

No, the shopkeeper was free to call the police, and he was right to attempt to stop the boys. But once he physically barred his path, it became a physical confrontation instead of a verbal one, and it was at that point that Mike emphasized his larger size, as a way of saying "back the hell off of me!"... again, not something I'm willing to believe any idiot teenager, myself included, could/might have done in similar circumstances. (When I look back at some of the idiotic things my friends and I pulled...!!!)

And they did not have "no money". They tried to pay and were told no because they were underage, so they defied the authorities, as teens are wont to do, and simply took it, like "ah, eff you and your stupid rules! Damn The Man™".

(14-06-2016 07:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:The boys tried to buy cigars (doubtless to make blunts out of) but were denied because they weren't 18, so they took them... wrong, but hardly thuggish.
You do know that Brown attempted to wrestle the officer's service weapon from his holster, and it discharged twice? But you don't describe that as thuggish. Sorry, but I do—the officer could easily have been killed.

Yes, it makes total sense to me that Mike Brown would walk right up to a police car, reach inside the car through the driver's window, reach across the officer to the right side of his body, unsnap the holster, and attempt to withdraw his weapon in order to kill a police officer. Totally. You and a friend should employ the scientific method to see if this claim holds any potential validity.

The other reason Brown would have been in a position to grab the officer's gun is if the cop pulled it out and pointed it in Mike's face, making the boy reasonably fear for his life in a city (St. Louis) which is known to bury brown bodies more-or-less at will, if the officer says he is in fear for his life, the standard defense (they're also very fond of claiming the people they beat the hell out of were "resisting arrest", and thus the officers had to break their ribs, or occasionally even kill them, even when there was no legal reason to arrest them in the first place). If you insist on looking at this situation with only your own neighborhood's perspective, without looking at the deep racist history of the state of Missouri and in particular the urban areas that are beginning to be "whitewashed" to make higher-tax-base neighborhoods (gentrification), then you will always miss the picture and fail to understand what the BLM people are even complaining about.

(14-06-2016 07:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:I don't know too many teenagers who would have behaved differently, under the circumstances.
That's where we differ. I don't know many (if any) teenagers that would have acted as did Michael Brown. We obviously move in different social circles. And the "circumstances" were.....? He was caught shoplifting—hardly anybody else's fault.

Thank you for defining White Privilege. I could not have done it better, myself.

No, we do not "move in different social circles", in the sense that you mean. I come from a conservative Christian, old-fashioned Southern, WASP middle class family that was as well-adjusted as you can expect, under those circumstances. But it was a smallish college town in the rural south, and kids get bored and do stupid things while they're making the transition to adulthood and learning to work off their testosterone in more-productive ways, eventually, but doing a lot of stupid stuff in the meantime. I suspect your neighborhood wasn't as different as you're pretending, here.

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14-06-2016, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 10:57 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 07:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  You do know that Brown attempted to wrestle the officer's service weapon from his holster, and it discharged twice? But you don't describe that as thuggish. Sorry, but I do—the officer could easily have been killed.

I think Michael Brown got his gun. The officer hit the gas, turned the car around, and he pulled out the rifle; and it was a gun fight. Brown could not aim the revolver for shit, and the officer picked him off from a hundred feet, or so, with one round.
(14-06-2016 08:39 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yes, it makes total sense to me that Mike Brown would walk right up to a police car, reach inside the car through the driver's window, reach across the officer to the right side of his body, unsnap the holster, and attempt to withdraw his weapon in order to kill a police officer. Totally. You and a friend should employ the scientific method to see if this claim holds any potential validity.

Brown slugged the cop first - really fucking hard.

Why did his friend run off if Brown was innocent???

I think Trayvon Martin's father, and his buddy he was getting Skittles for, were all scheming to get Zimmerman's gun, and then Trayvon could be king of the gang they was organizing. I think Zimmerman thought he shot Martin's buddy. I think the scheme started months ago - Martin's buddy made buddies with Zimmerman. I think Martin's buddy was the one who lured Zimmerman out of the truck; and then Martin jumped out of the bushes and attacked him.

Why didn't Martin's buddy report that Trayvon never returned from getting Skittles??? Why didn't Trayvon's father report his innocent child to be missing???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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14-06-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: Thoughts on BLM
(14-06-2016 08:39 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  No, we do not "move in different social circles", in the sense that you mean. I come from a conservative Christian, old-fashioned Southern, WASP middle class family that was as well-adjusted as you can expect, under those circumstances. But it was a smallish college town in the rural south, and kids get bored and do stupid things while they're making the transition to adulthood and learning to work off their testosterone in more-productive ways, eventually, but doing a lot of stupid stuff in the meantime. I suspect your neighborhood wasn't as different as you're pretending, here.

We're not going to test the cops' authority - we'll do the restitution for shop lifting.

What doesn't make sense is that black people in the ghetto, and in better neighborhoods, supposedly have been teaching their children for years to be careful around the police, and it is like it is not getting through to them - they keep testing the police.No

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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