Threat of Islam
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21-01-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
Chas

You ask very specific questions and I want to specifically respond to all of them. It's going to take me a couple of days to do it, so pleasr bear with me. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring your response.

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21-01-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
@EK, you bolded an interesting part.
To the bolded lines I respond with some bolded lines of my own.

The death of Awlaki is a major blow to Al-Qaeda's most active operational affiliate. He took the lead in planning and directing efforts to murder innocent Americans … and he repeatedly called on individuals in the United States and around the globe to kill innocent men, women and children to advance a murderous agenda. [The strike] is further proof that Al-Qaeda and its affiliates will find no safe haven anywhere in the world.

Quote:Were they dangerous? The government says so, but the information is classified, so we'll just have to trust that they made the right call.

And what would they gain from killing random innocent American citizens?
Why would they purposely kill people for the sake of it? They wouldn't.
The only situation where this is bad is if their information is wrong, but I doubt that.
If it quacks like a duck, walk likes a duck, flaps its wings like a duck, it's probably an Islamic terrorist, kill it.

Quote:So without adequate oversight or disclosure, the government can, and indeed has, executed a citizen of the United States in foreign territory.

Again, this is terrorism, not someone stealing your car.
These people need to be removed now. Giving them a trial gives them spot light and gives them a podium to spew more of their inciting bullshit.

Quote:Allowing the executive branch and the CIA to interpret the Constitution for themselves

He lost his rights to the constitution when he joined a terrorist organization.



I really don't see what the problem is. You guys have been killing terrorists for about 25years. Why is it suddenly a problem when one has US citizenship?
Maybe it's just me but I don't really put all that much weight on the meaning of something like citizenship when you go around inciting violence because of religion.
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21-01-2015, 09:39 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(20-01-2015 09:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 08:00 PM)BnW Wrote:  All these people upset with Obama, what do you expect him to do? We've had drones flying through sovereign countries firing missiles at random people since the day he took office.

Random people? No.

Quote:He's overseeing the largest suspension of civil liberties in the county's history, including the suspension of habeus by Lincoln and the internment of the Japanese by FDR,

He inherited it and is trying to control it.

Quote:and he made a list of Americans he feels he can kill without a trial -

You got a copy of that list we can see?

Quote:and then he killed someone on that list.

Who? When?

Quote:So, what else does he need to do? Make a total ass out of himself, ala Bobby Jindal?

That's a ridiculous comparison.

I'm thinking you missed the gist of BnW's post Chas. It's more like what more does Obama have to do to demonstrate that's he's the farthest thing from a pussy on national security other than sending a drone up your ass just to tickle your testicles. Teaturds gonna keep calling him a pussy until he accedes to their call for an intentionally inflammatory recognition of "A GLOBAL WAR AGAINST ISLAMIC TERRORISTS". Ain't gonna happen. That'd be the stupidest thing he could do.

#sigh
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22-01-2015, 04:01 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
(20-01-2015 04:18 PM)Gaest Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 11:33 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdoztoBEuc

(I tried to embed this video in my post, but don't know how).

It is obvious that the ultimate goal of Islam (not just radical Islam) is to govern the entire world.

I think the dynamic behind this desire goes much further than the simple desire to rule.

The dynamic behind this desire is that Muslims are living out a fantasy, based upon the ancient texts of the Bible and the Koran. They see themselves as the "true" elect of God (Allah) who were tricked out of their birthright and blessing by the Jews.

They believe that they--and only they--have the "true" morality and are destined to govern the entire world. To realize this goal, the must either convert, enslave, or kill all others. They see it as their God-given responsibility to crush all other political systems (especially any form of democracy) and to institute Shariah Law, on a global scale.

This is a very dangerous and threatening ideology and I really hope, but am not expecting, President Obama in his state of the union speech, to get his head out of his ass, quit acting like George Bush, and address the threat Islam poses to world peace, realistically.

Grand, you made a bunch of claims. Can you substantiate them, or should I just write them off as overly generalizing and slightly paranoid?

Admittedly, I can not substantiate that Obama has his head stuck up his ass. He looked O.K. during the speech.

In the matter of the threat that Islam poses to the world community, all I can suggest is that you go to youtube and watch the mass of videos concerning ISIS, Islam, in general, and Shariah Law: Follow the references given in these videos and judge for yourself.

I hope that there is a bit of paranoia involved, but I would rather err on the side of over-vigilance than under-vigilance.

As to the base reasons behind Islam's actions, they were more conjecture than fact.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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22-01-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
(21-01-2015 09:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 09:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  Random people? No.


He inherited it and is trying to control it.


You got a copy of that list we can see?


Who? When?


That's a ridiculous comparison.

I'm thinking you missed the gist of BnW's post Chas. It's more like what more does Obama have to do to demonstrate that's he's the farthest thing from a pussy on national security other than sending a drone up your ass just to tickle your testicles. Teaturds gonna keep calling him a pussy until he accedes to their call for an intentionally inflammatory recognition of "A GLOBAL WAR AGAINST ISLAMIC TERRORISTS". Ain't gonna happen. That'd be the stupidest thing he could do.

I hope I did miss the point because I didn't like what I saw.

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24-01-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to this. Been really busy.

Anyway:

Random people? No.

How do you want to describe them? Innocents? People at the wrong place at the wrong time? We've killed thousands of people where there is zero evidence that they were doing anything associated with terrorism. And, it's not something that Obama denies. A few links:

The Toll of 5 Years of Done Strikes

The Wedding That a U.S. Drone Stirke Turned Into A Funeral

Drone Strikes Killing More Civilians Than US Says

The important point in that last link is that the Obama administration doesn't deny they are killing innocent people. They just quibble on the numbers, as if killing fewer innocents makes the whole thing ok.

Drone strikes are creating more terrorists than they are killings. The CIA has a specific term for this phenomenon: blowback. And, even some Americans are admitting its happening because of drone strikes. That's one link. Google "Blowback Drones" and you'll see a lot more links, many of them from leftists sites. I purposely didn't rely on one of those.

On 9/11 an attack from lunatics killed 3,000 people. Because of that we launched two wars, one on completely trumped up claims (I have no issue with what we did in Afghanistan). And, now we've used that as an excuse to kill thousands of people who did nothing to us. If they now hit us back here at home, are they justified using the same logic? I'm sure they think so.

He inherited it and is trying to control it.

Based on what evidence is he trying to control it? By all accounts, he's expanded the domestic spying that went on under Bush. The Snowden documents pretty much prove that. He's thrown up all over the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments. He did stop the use of outright torture, I'll give him that, but he seems to have no interest in holding anyone responsible for it.

You got a copy of that list we can see?

No, I don't. It's a secret list. Are you seriously arguing it doesn't exist? Even the liberal New York Times has written about it.

And, on that list has been American citizens. We killed a 16 year old because of who is father was. He was not accused of anything. And, his father was not convicted of anything. And, Team Obama just shrugged it off and blamed the kid for having the wrong parents.

Who? When?

Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16 year old son (and at least one other person). They were killed on September 30, 2011. It was in all the papers and reported heavily in the news. Are you seriously going to deny this happened?

Muffs - you asked, in so many words, why this matters and why people should care, especially on the killing of al-Awlaki. I have a very specific view on why this matters.

We keep getting told that we are doing all this "to preserve our way of life". What is not specified is which aspects of our way of life we are preserving. Not the rule of law. Not the adherence to our values and our history. So, what are we fighting for? Our right to buy cheap goods that are produced by slave labor in Asian countries? Our right to have cheap gas which requires us to prop up dictatorships across the middle east? What are we doing all this for?

There are fundamental principles in play here. When the Executive decides he has the power to ignore the founding laws of the country and unilaterally decide to kill one of his own citizens without any due process, without any oversight, without anyone having any chance to prevent it, that is the point when we ceased to be a republic. The whole idea of our democracy is a farce if that is allowed to happen. And, it has happened. And, Obama claims he can do it again. Bush first claimed to have this power but he never actually exercised it (although, given the opportunity, I have no doubt he would have). Obama has now actually carried out an execution. He should be impeached for that. He should be in prison for that. But, no one really says "boo" about it.

I don't give a flying fuck about Anwar al-Awlaki. I think he probably got what he deserved. But, that's not the point. The point is that we are a country of laws and those laws apply equally to everyone. Or, we are not. Right now, we are not. And, that's a big problem. And, who's to say that Anwar al-Awlaki was really guilty of all he was accused of? It's not like the government hasn't made mistake before. In 1996 there was a bombing at the Atlanta Olympics. The feds arrested the guy who found the 2nd bomb, a man named Richard Jewel. They said the only reason he found the 2nd bomb was because he planted it. They ruined the guy. He developed health problems and died from heart failure a few years ago (which, while it's impossible to draw a direct line from what happened to him to his death, it certainly seems reasonable to state it didn't help). Oh, did I mention he was completely innocent and the feds had to let him go? Turns out it was someone completely different, and Jewel was actually a hero who found a bomb and saved the lives of innocent people. Whoops.

al-Awlaki's family went to court to try to compel the government to make a case against him and present evidence. The feds refused to do so and the court said the family didn't have the legal standing to bring a claim on al-Awlaki's behalf. So, he died with no trial, no due process, and no evidence against him ever presented to a jury, which were all required by the Constitution of the United States, which Obama swore to uphold and defend.

It's a problem. The biggest one the free world faces. Terrorists can kill people but only we can destroy our way of life. And, that is not only true for the US.

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24-01-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(24-01-2015 12:43 PM)BnW Wrote:  Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to this. Been really busy.

Anyway:

Random people? No.

How do you want to describe them? Innocents? People at the wrong place at the wrong time? We've killed thousands of people where there is zero evidence that they were doing anything associated with terrorism. And, it's not something that Obama denies. A few links:

The Toll of 5 Years of Done Strikes

The Wedding That a U.S. Drone Stirke Turned Into A Funeral

Drone Strikes Killing More Civilians Than US Says

The important point in that last link is that the Obama administration doesn't deny they are killing innocent people. They just quibble on the numbers, as if killing fewer innocents makes the whole thing ok.

Drone strikes are creating more terrorists than they are killings. The CIA has a specific term for this phenomenon: blowback. And, even some Americans are admitting its happening because of drone strikes. That's one link. Google "Blowback Drones" and you'll see a lot more links, many of them from leftists sites. I purposely didn't rely on one of those.

On 9/11 an attack from lunatics killed 3,000 people. Because of that we launched two wars, one on completely trumped up claims (I have no issue with what we did in Afghanistan). And, now we've used that as an excuse to kill thousands of people who did nothing to us. If they now hit us back here at home, are they justified using the same logic? I'm sure they think so.

He inherited it and is trying to control it.

Based on what evidence is he trying to control it? By all accounts, he's expanded the domestic spying that went on under Bush. The Snowden documents pretty much prove that. He's thrown up all over the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments. He did stop the use of outright torture, I'll give him that, but he seems to have no interest in holding anyone responsible for it.

You got a copy of that list we can see?

No, I don't. It's a secret list. Are you seriously arguing it doesn't exist? Even the liberal New York Times has written about it.

And, on that list has been American citizens. We killed a 16 year old because of who is father was. He was not accused of anything. And, his father was not convicted of anything. And, Team Obama just shrugged it off and blamed the kid for having the wrong parents.

Who? When?

Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16 year old son (and at least one other person). They were killed on September 30, 2011. It was in all the papers and reported heavily in the news. Are you seriously going to deny this happened?

Muffs - you asked, in so many words, why this matters and why people should care, especially on the killing of al-Awlaki. I have a very specific view on why this matters.

We keep getting told that we are doing all this "to preserve our way of life". What is not specified is which aspects of our way of life we are preserving. Not the rule of law. Not the adherence to our values and our history. So, what are we fighting for? Our right to buy cheap goods that are produced by slave labor in Asian countries? Our right to have cheap gas which requires us to prop up dictatorships across the middle east? What are we doing all this for?

There are fundamental principles in play here. When the Executive decides he has the power to ignore the founding laws of the country and unilaterally decide to kill one of his own citizens without any due process, without any oversight, without anyone having any chance to prevent it, that is the point when we ceased to be a republic. The whole idea of our democracy is a farce if that is allowed to happen. And, it has happened. And, Obama claims he can do it again. Bush first claimed to have this power but he never actually exercised it (although, given the opportunity, I have no doubt he would have). Obama has now actually carried out an execution. He should be impeached for that. He should be in prison for that. But, no one really says "boo" about it.

I don't give a flying fuck about Anwar al-Awlaki. I think he probably got what he deserved. But, that's not the point. The point is that we are a country of laws and those laws apply equally to everyone. Or, we are not. Right now, we are not. And, that's a big problem. And, who's to say that Anwar al-Awlaki was really guilty of all he was accused of? It's not like the government hasn't made mistake before. In 1996 there was a bombing at the Atlanta Olympics. The feds arrested the guy who found the 2nd bomb, a man named Richard Jewel. They said the only reason he found the 2nd bomb was because he planted it. They ruined the guy. He developed health problems and died from heart failure a few years ago (which, while it's impossible to draw a direct line from what happened to him to his death, it certainly seems reasonable to state it didn't help). Oh, did I mention he was completely innocent and the feds had to let him go? Turns out it was someone completely different, and Jewel was actually a hero who found a bomb and saved the lives of innocent people. Whoops.

al-Awlaki's family went to court to try to compel the government to make a case against him and present evidence. The feds refused to do so and the court said the family didn't have the legal standing to bring a claim on al-Awlaki's behalf. So, he died with no trial, no due process, and no evidence against him ever presented to a jury, which were all required by the Constitution of the United States, which Obama swore to uphold and defend.

It's a problem. The biggest one the free world faces. Terrorists can kill people but only we can destroy our way of life. And, that is not only true for the US.

Thank you for expanding and clarifying.

One quibble I have is people's outrage at "killing American citizens without due process".
In my opinion, enemy combatant is enemy combatant; citizenship is not an issue.

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24-01-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
Sure. I'm all about the clarity. And the bass.

As for your quibble, regardless of your view on this particular person, the fact is there are laws and he had rights. At the point we let a single individual be the arbiter of when rights matter and when the rule of law should be applied and complied with, we've created a reality where the principles of democracy no longer apply. The case to kill each succeeding person becomes easier to make each time. The rule of law has been getting diminished steadily since 2001. People don't even blink at most of three infractions anymore.

When it comes to things like this I don't focus on the individual, I focus on the principles.

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24-01-2015, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2015 04:36 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Threat of Islam
(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  @EK, you bolded an interesting part.
To the bolded lines I respond with some bolded lines of my own.

The death of Awlaki is a major blow to Al-Qaeda's most active operational affiliate. He took the lead in planning and directing efforts to murder innocent Americans … and he repeatedly called on individuals in the United States and around the globe to kill innocent men, women and children to advance a murderous agenda. [The strike] is further proof that Al-Qaeda and its affiliates will find no safe haven anywhere in the world.

For fuck's sake muffs, that is a claim made by the government who executed him. What evidence was presented to verify that claim? None, shit is all classified. So what is to prevent the govermnet from making a similar claim against innocent people, and hand waving away the need for evidence or due process under the fear-mongering umbrella of 'terrorism'?


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Were they dangerous? The government says so, but the information is classified, so we'll just have to trust that they made the right call.
And what would they gain from killing random innocent American citizens?

Those who have power can, and will, abuse it if left unchecked. I don't need to have to have a hypothetical as to why the government might purposely target an innocent, I'm merely worried about the terrifying possibility that it can happen and we'll never know; and that you're somehow okay with this sort of unchecked government control over life and death is disturbing.


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Why would they purposely kill people for the sake of it? They wouldn't.

That's an assumption. Because if they get to the point where they can execute american citizens without due process or evidence, then what is there to prevent them from turning that very same machine on the innocent? If there's no checks and oversight, who would know? What would be done? How would the innocent be protected from their own government?


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The only situation where this is bad is if their information is wrong, but I doubt that.

Then you have far greater faith in the federal government than I. Remember WMD's in Iraq? Oh right, there weren't any. Yeah, fuck that noise.


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If it quacks like a duck, walk likes a duck, flaps its wings like a duck, it's probably an Islamic terrorist, kill it.

Facepalm


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:So without adequate oversight or disclosure, the government can, and indeed has, executed a citizen of the United States in foreign territory.
Again, this is terrorism, not someone stealing your car.

Doesn't fucking matter muffs. As a citizen, he's entitled to a trial to be tried by a jury of his peers, regardless of whether he stands accused of stealing a car, robbing a bank, killing his wife, or plotting to commit terrorism.


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  These people need to be removed now. Giving them a trial gives them spot light and gives them a podium to spew more of their inciting bullshit.

And in doing so, we become the very thing we claim to be fighting against. Ignorant close minded pussies too afraid to have our opinions challenged in the public square. Yeah, fuck that.


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Allowing the executive branch and the CIA to interpret the Constitution for themselves
He lost his rights to the constitution when he joined a terrorist organization.

Doesn't work that way, 'free association' is another right he shares as a citizen. Which means that simply being associated with a group does not make one guilty of anything, anymore so than simply being a member of the Roman Catholic Church makes you personally guilty of child molestation.


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I really don't see what the problem is. You guys have been killing terrorists for about 25years. Why is it suddenly a problem when one has US citizenship?

Because when the government can unilaterally revoke one citizen's rights, what is to prevent it from doing the same to other citizens?


(21-01-2015 04:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Maybe it's just me but I don't really put all that much weight on the meaning of something like citizenship when you go around inciting violence because of religion.

Once again, a claim that was made but never substantiate. He was never brought to trail, never allowed to face his accusers, never allowed to see the evidence (or lack thereof) arrayed against him. We didn't even have a fucking show trail or even a secret court or tribunal, we skipped any and all pretenses of justice and straight up executed him. If they think they had enough evidence to warrant his assassination, then they had enough to bring him to trial. That they didn't, and chose instead to execute him and his son, is very worrisome.

Because if we don't hold ourselves to a higher standard, then the actual terrorists have already won.

They claimed victory the day we sacrificed our ideals on the altar of fear.

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24-01-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(20-01-2015 11:33 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdoztoBEuc

(I tried to embed this video in my post, but don't know how).

It is obvious that the ultimate goal of Islam (not just radical Islam) is to govern the entire world.

I think the dynamic behind this desire goes much further than the simple desire to rule.

The dynamic behind this desire is that Muslims are living out a fantasy, based upon the ancient texts of the Bible and the Koran. They see themselves as the "true" elect of God (Allah) who were tricked out of their birthright and blessing by the Jews.

They believe that they--and only they--have the "true" morality and are destined to govern the entire world. To realize this goal, the must either convert, enslave, or kill all others. They see it as their God-given responsibility to crush all other political systems (especially any form of democracy) and to institute Shariah Law, on a global scale.

This is a very dangerous and threatening ideology and I really hope, but am not expecting, President Obama in his state of the union speech, to get his head out of his ass, quit acting like George Bush, and address the threat Islam poses to world peace, realistically.

Gee...don't they sound a lot like the "Christians" and "Jews". If you ask me...from my point of view, all three major religions seem to be doing a pretty good job of fucking everything up.

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