Threat of Islam
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24-01-2015, 05:36 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(24-01-2015 05:08 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 11:33 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdoztoBEuc

(I tried to embed this video in my post, but don't know how).

It is obvious that the ultimate goal of Islam (not just radical Islam) is to govern the entire world.

I think the dynamic behind this desire goes much further than the simple desire to rule.

The dynamic behind this desire is that Muslims are living out a fantasy, based upon the ancient texts of the Bible and the Koran. They see themselves as the "true" elect of God (Allah) who were tricked out of their birthright and blessing by the Jews.

They believe that they--and only they--have the "true" morality and are destined to govern the entire world. To realize this goal, the must either convert, enslave, or kill all others. They see it as their God-given responsibility to crush all other political systems (especially any form of democracy) and to institute Shariah Law, on a global scale.

This is a very dangerous and threatening ideology and I really hope, but am not expecting, President Obama in his state of the union speech, to get his head out of his ass, quit acting like George Bush, and address the threat Islam poses to world peace, realistically.

Gee...don't they sound a lot like the "Christians" and "Jews". If you ask me...from my point of view, all three major religions seem to be doing a pretty good job of fucking everything up.

You will never hear me attempting to justify the atrocities committed by Christians or Jews (past or present). I do think, however, that the threat posed by Islam is somewhat more immediate and deserves special attention. It is my view that the "insanity" uneashed on the world by Western Monotheistic Tradition has been and will continue to be a curse rather than a blessing. It would have been far better had Moses been left to die in the Nile (according to the story of the godmyth).

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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24-01-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
Quote:We keep getting told that we are doing all this "to preserve our way of life". What is not specified is which aspects of our way of life we are preserving. Not the rule of law. Not the adherence to our values and our history. So, what are we fighting for? Our right to buy cheap goods that are produced by slave labor in Asian countries? Our right to have cheap gas which requires us to prop up dictatorships across the middle east? What are we doing all this for?

Well the fight against ISIS is purely a neutralize the threat war. They are a threat, they kill people that aren't Sunni (or is it Shia?) Muslims and at times rather brutal ways. They hate the west and would gladly do 1,000 9/11's given the opportunity.
They are not someone we (the world) want having substantial power.

It's not about way of life, it's about life. Kill or be killed. And not just for Americans but mostly for the Iraqi people who are in immediate danger.

Yes it is part political, obvious a pro-west Iraq is better than an Islamic North Korea. But it's not all political.

Quote:There are fundamental principles in play here. When the Executive decides he has the power to ignore the founding laws of the country and unilaterally decide to kill one of his own citizens without any due process, without any oversight, without anyone having any chance to prevent it, that is the point when we ceased to be a republic.

This is where we differ. You say it's bad that the government went against the constitution and shit. But that guy went against it too. He went against what the citizenship meant. He joined an Islamic terrorist organization and was inciting violence against the US. He can hardly be called a US citizen. Yes he held the papers but he wasn't a US citizen (if you get what I mean).

Quote:But, no one really says "boo" about it.

Because people have perspective and aren't retarded.

Quote:The point is that we are a country of laws and those laws apply equally to everyone.

Actually they only apply to people within that countries borders. You can't enforce law on someone in a different country besides international law.

If your argument is that Obama is in the country. Sure, but the President has signed off on drone attacks and wars and stuff for how long? How is that any different. How is killing Bin Laden any different? You went to a foreign country to find and kill a cunt.

Quote:which were all required by the Constitution of the United States

In America.

If this happened on US soil I would be pissed off too. But it didn't.
It happened to an Islamic terrorist in Yemen who just so happened to have US citizenship.

Quote:Thank you for expanding and clarifying.

One quibble I have is people's outrage at "killing American citizens without due process".
In my opinion, enemy combatant is enemy combatant; citizenship is not an issue.

Yip. I'm with Chas on this.

Quote:the fact is there are laws and he had rights.

When you break the law you lose rights. This is fundamental. I kill you, I go to jail. I join a terrorist organization on my countries enemy list and move to a foreign country and incite violence against my home country I'm probably gonna get droned.

Quote:At the point we let a single individual be the arbiter of when rights matter and when the rule of law should be applied and complied with, we've created a reality where the principles of democracy no longer apply.

They're called Judges, we've had them for ages.

Quote:For fuck's sake muffs, that is a claim made by the government who executed him.

Yea, and the moon landings were filmed in a Hollywood basement, what's your point?

Quote:Was evidence was presented to verify that claim? None, shit is all classified.

It would have been carried out by the CIA? Of course it's classified. It will be declassified in due time anyway.

Quote:So what is to prevent the govermnet from making a similar claim against innocent people, and hand waving away the need for evidence or due process under the fear-mongering umbrella of 'terrorism'?

This is stupid. "If we allow the gays to marry next people will be marrying animals".

Quote:I don't need to have to have a hypothetical as to why the government might purposely target an innocent

Please do give me a hypothetical. I'm seriously interested as to how this case directly leads to the purposeful assassination of an innocent person.

Quote:That's an assumption. Because if they get to the point where they can execute american citizens without due process or evidence, then what is there to prevent them from turning that very same machine on the innocent? If there's no checks and oversight, who would know? What would be done? How would the innocent be protected from their own government?

"If we allow those gays to marry next people will be having sex with dead people in the street and at our schools infront of our children!"

Quote:Doesn't fucking matter muffs.

Actually it does. A car thief isn't on the national enemy/at war with list.

Quote:As a citizen, he's entitled to a trial to be tried by a jury of his peers, regardless of whether he stands accused of stealing a car, robbing a bank, killing his wife, or plotting to commit terrorism.

In America, yes I agree. He was in Yemen.

Quote:And in doing so, we become the very thing we claim to be fighting against. Ignorant close minded pussies too afraid to have our opinions challenged in the public square. Yeah, fuck that.

wtf? What you said doesn't relate to what I said. I'm in no way against my views being challenged. But he wasn't challenging our views, he was inciting violence...

Quote:Doesn't work that way

It does actually.

Quote:'free association' is another right he shares as a citizen. Which means that simply being associated with a group does not make one guilty of anything, anymore so than simply being a member of the Roman Catholic Church makes you personally guilty of child molestation.

Except that America isn't at war with the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church isn't an official terrorist organization. And no being a Catholic doesn't mean you're a child molester but molesting children does and this guy was inciting violence and recruiting people to attack America and shit.

Quote:Because when the government can unilaterally revoke one citizen's rights, what is to prevent it from doing the same to other citizens?

"If we let those gays marry..." I'm sure you get the point by now.

Quote:Once again, a claim that was made but never substantiate. He was never brought to trail, never allowed to face his accusers, never allowed to see the evidence (or lack thereof) arrayed against him.

And this isn't any different to the thousands of other terrorists you've killed.

Quote:We didn't even have a fucking show trail or even a secret court or tribunal, we skipped any and all pretenses of justice and straight up executed him. If they think they had enough evidence to warrant his assassination, then they had enough to bring him to trial. That they didn't, and chose instead to execute him and his son, is very worrisome.

He was in Yemen. If he was on America soil they would have arrested him.
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24-01-2015, 07:29 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(20-01-2015 09:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 08:00 PM)BnW Wrote:  All these people upset with Obama, what do you expect him to do? We've had drones flying through sovereign countries firing missiles at random people since the day he took office.

Random people? No.

Quote:He's overseeing the largest suspension of civil liberties in the county's history, including the suspension of habeus by Lincoln and the internment of the Japanese by FDR,

He inherited it and is trying to control it.

Quote:and he made a list of Americans he feels he can kill without a trial -

You got a copy of that list we can see?

Quote:and then he killed someone on that list.

Who? When?

Quote:So, what else does he need to do? Make a total ass out of himself, ala Bobby Jindal?

That's a ridiculous comparison.

If he didn't do it, the conservatives would vilify him, Now that he has...why is everyone pissed ?

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24-01-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
As a young Marine veteran told me recently, "I hear the Marines and Army are hiring."

Every time someone blithely calls for military action to counter some threat—and I do see ISIS and al Qaeda as threats—I want to ask them specifically what they have in mind. Seems to me, urged on by a few decades of efforts by American governments, that much of the world now feels that the United States has a duty to send troops wherever to "do something" about problems such as these.

But history seems to show that, short of long-term occupation—at a cost of blood and treasure to the United States—nothing really works. The U.S. has droned the fuck out of Yemen, Waziristan and elsewhere to kill "bad guys" (we have an incredibly juvenile, comic-book view of the world) and it's arguably done nothing more than create more anger and determination to oppose the West.

Of course, 99.5% of Americans now do *not* serve in the military, nor does the government ask of them any sacrifice at all for its state of near constant warfare. So, you know, talk is pretty fucking cheap.

Also, while in Australia at the end of 2013, I was surprised to learn of deep paranoia about a possible war with Indonesia over the issue of "boat people." Even more surprising, in reading letters to the editor and talking with all kinds of people, I realized just how much of a military sugar-daddy they (and most U.S. allies) view America. A number of people told me something along lines of, "Well, we don't necessarily like what the U.S. does in the world, but we have to kiss its ass—because then they will have to come in and save *our* ass when Indonesia declares war."

I'd like to see the U.S. turn to all the many allies on the American military tit, from Australia to Saudi Arabia to Japan, and say, "Yo. Time for you to start paying the lion's share of the cost for your own defense, OK? And if shit is going down in your neighborhood, we may be here to help you, but you need to take the lead."

That would "support the troops" a fuckload more than clapping in airports, yellow ribbon magnets and asshole pro athletes wearing camo and spouting horseshit about how much they respect the military.

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Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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25-01-2015, 05:27 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2015 07:32 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Threat of Islam
For fuck's sake muffs, you can't be this stupid...

(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:There are fundamental principles in play here. When the Executive decides he has the power to ignore the founding laws of the country and unilaterally decide to kill one of his own citizens without any due process, without any oversight, without anyone having any chance to prevent it, that is the point when we ceased to be a republic.
This is where we differ. You say it's bad that the government went against the constitution and shit. But that guy went against it too. He went against what the citizenship meant. He joined an Islamic terrorist organization and was inciting violence against the US. He can hardly be called a US citizen. Yes he held the papers but he wasn't a US citizen (if you get what I mean).

That is not for you, or me, or the Executive branch, or the CIA to decide. If the spy mooks can revoke the protections granted by citizenship without due process they can, and will, abuse that power.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:But, no one really says "boo" about it.
Because people have perspective and aren't retarded.

Facepalm


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:The point is that we are a country of laws and those laws apply equally to everyone.
Actually they only apply to people within that countries borders. You can't enforce law on someone in a different country besides international law.

If your argument is that Obama is in the country. Sure, but the President has signed off on drone attacks and wars and stuff for how long? How is that any different. How is killing Bin Laden any different? You went to a foreign country to find and kill a cunt.

Which for the record, was a different set of circumstances. That happened in Pakistan, a nominal ally, who we just failed to 'inform' them as to our actions. But we did purposely breech their airspace and their territorial sovereignty without permission, and wars have started over less. Bin Laden also had explicitly taken credit for the 9-11 attacks and was not an citizen of the United States.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:which were all required by the Constitution of the United States
In America.

You don't stop being a citizen when you leave the border... Facepalm


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If this happened on US soil I would be pissed off too. But it didn't.
It happened to an Islamic terrorist in Yemen who just so happened to have US citizenship.

All of which are problems. It happened in Yemen, without their permission, and whom we are not at war with. It happened to a suspected terrorist, who also by nature of his citizenship, was entitled to a trial of his peers to determine the validity of that accusation.

You are presuming his guilt. On that presumption, you are explicitly endorsing state sanctioned assassination.

That you fail to see the problem with this is breathtaking.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:the fact is there are laws and he had rights.
When you break the law you lose rights. This is fundamental. I kill you, I go to jail.

You go to jail if you're a suspect, and will remain in jail if convicted at trial. You conveniently skipped a few steps there muffs.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I join a terrorist organization on my countries enemy list and move to a foreign country and incite violence against my home country I'm probably gonna get droned.

And once you're cool with allowing that, how much farther is it before you're able to be murdered on foreign soil for merely criticizing the government? You're okay with unilaterally breaching foreign territory for the express purpose of state sanctioned assassination. How easy would it be for them to smear you as a terrorist if it's convenient for them, then hide their lack of evidence or justification with 'because terrorist'?

It's a precedent that is frighteningly open to abuse.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:At the point we let a single individual be the arbiter of when rights matter and when the rule of law should be applied and complied with, we've created a reality where the principles of democracy no longer apply.
They're called Judges, we've had them for ages.

This is not justice. Judges can get you a warrant to search a premise for evidence under probable cause, they cannot sign off on unilateral executions of citizens sans trial and conviction, nor would putting them on trial in absentia be anything close to justice.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:For fuck's sake muffs, that is a claim made by the government who executed him.
Yea, and the moon landings were filmed in a Hollywood basement, what's your point?

Nice false equivocation and dodge. Stop pretending to be a theistic apologist, it doesn't suite you. Drinking Beverage


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Was evidence was presented to verify that claim? None, shit is all classified.
It would have been carried out by the CIA? Of course it's classified. It will be declassified in due time anyway.

And if it turns out he was innocent? That the 'evidence' against his was just as fabricated as the stories about WMD's in Iraq? Then what? More innocents murdered by the government, on purpose, while simultaneously lying to the public for their own benefit. We already have in place the apparatus to assassinate people in other countries and have created the false pretenses and legitimacy to use it against our own citizens, and there is no checks on this system.

That is terrifying.

That is terrorism.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:So what is to prevent the government from making a similar claim against innocent people, and hand waving away the need for evidence or due process under the fear-mongering umbrella of 'terrorism'?
This is stupid. "If we allow the gays to marry next people will be marrying animals".

Again muffs, stop pretending to be a theistic apologist, you suck at it and we're all too good at ripping through that sort of stupid bullshit.

Bestiality and marrying animals is a bad slippery slope argument, and fails for any number of reasons, most notably that animals are incapable of informed consent.

What is required for the government to kill an innocent in another country with a drone strike? Nothing more that the system we already have in place, which already routinely kills innocents on accident. The government need only lie, and they have shown time and time again that they will lie when they think they won't be held accountable. They are not being held accountable, there is no public oversight. We have no way of knowing beyond a reasonable doubt if the people they are executing are guilty.

Drone strikes can be called on the GPS signal of a suspected phone's location, regardless of whether or not the suspect we want to kill actually has that phone on them. Insurgents are actually in the habit of swapping out SIM cards with other phones to hide their locations, and this has caused a lot of needless civilian deaths, because the CIA is very willy-nilly with their strikes. With zero on the ground intelligence to even confirm that they might hit the intended target (i.e. that suspected terrorist actually is in possession of suspected phone), they will launch a missile that will guarantee someone dies; and often they are wrong, and those decisions costs the lives of many innocent civilians.

We are the best recruitment tool the terrorists could have ever asked for.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:I don't need to have to have a hypothetical as to why the government might purposely target an innocent
Please do give me a hypothetical. I'm seriously interested as to how this case directly leads to the purposeful assassination of an innocent person.

If the government could get away with a drone strike in Russia, do you think that they wouldn't have already hit Edward Snowden? One of the most important whistle-blowers of our generation, and he's been lambasted as a terrorist from day one.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:That's an assumption. Because if they get to the point where they can execute american citizens without due process or evidence, then what is there to prevent them from turning that very same machine on the innocent? If there's no checks and oversight, who would know? What would be done? How would the innocent be protected from their own government?
"If we allow those gays to marry next people will be having sex with dead people in the street and at our schools infront of our children!"

Fuck you muffs, I can't believe you're stooping that low... Facepalm


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Doesn't fucking matter muffs.
Actually it does. A car thief isn't on the national enemy/at war with list.

Being on such a list is not a crime, nor does it revoke your Constitutionally granted rights as a citizen of the United States, so there is that...


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:As a citizen, he's entitled to a trial to be tried by a jury of his peers, regardless of whether he stands accused of stealing a car, robbing a bank, killing his wife, or plotting to commit terrorism.
In America, yes I agree. He was in Yemen.

You don't lose your citizenship when you leave the border muffs, see above.

Also, doesn't that sort of destroy your whole 'inciting violence' argument? Who gives a shit? If Yemen lets him incite violence against us because it's not illegal in their country, by what right do we assassinate him for it?

Think about that again. You're advocating for state sanctioned assassination of a citizen for inciting violence. Not actually committing violence, just advocating it. Assassinating a citizen, in another country, without their permission, without trial for the suspect, for suspected word crimes.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:And in doing so, we become the very thing we claim to be fighting against. Ignorant close minded pussies too afraid to have our opinions challenged in the public square. Yeah, fuck that.
wtf? What you said doesn't relate to what I said. I'm in no way against my views being challenged. But he wasn't challenging our views, he was inciting violence...

You were crying that we shouldn't bring him to trial so he can soapbox. My point was to let him soapbox all he wants, I'm not afraid of his bad ideas. If we have the evidence, we will get a conviction; end of soapbox. Knowing how skewed the justice system is, you could probably get him convicted with shitty evidence. But no, let's lets nuke his ass from the sky instead.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Doesn't work that way
It does actually.

No it does not, and repeating it won't change that.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:'free association' is another right he shares as a citizen. Which means that simply being associated with a group does not make one guilty of anything, anymore so than simply being a member of the Roman Catholic Church makes you personally guilty of child molestation.
Except that America isn't at war with the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church isn't an official terrorist organization. And no being a Catholic doesn't mean you're a child molester but molesting children does and this guy was inciting violence and recruiting people to attack America and shit.

Once fucking again muffs, those are claims made by the government that assassinated him yet was too afraid to put him on trail. Everything you've argued for is on the unwarranted presumptions that he is both guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and the government would not lie about it. And without a system in place to check that power and keep the government accountable, we have no way of knowing, and I'm not so gullible as to give the federal government (let alone the intelligence agencies) a blank check.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Because when the government can unilaterally revoke one citizen's rights, what is to prevent it from doing the same to other citizens?
"If we let those gays marry..." I'm sure you get the point by now.

Oh I do. You suck at pretending to be a theistic apologist. I doubt that will stop you.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Once again, a claim that was made but never substantiate. He was never brought to trail, never allowed to face his accusers, never allowed to see the evidence (or lack thereof) arrayed against him.
And this isn't any different to the thousands of other terrorists you've killed.

And who says that I agree with those? Also, nice attempt at a Red Herring.


(24-01-2015 05:54 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:We didn't even have a fucking show trail or even a secret court or tribunal, we skipped any and all pretenses of justice and straight up executed him. If they think they had enough evidence to warrant his assassination, then they had enough to bring him to trial. That they didn't, and chose instead to execute him and his son, is very worrisome.
He was in Yemen. If he was on America soil they would have arrested him.

You go through the popper channels. You negotiate. You do not unilaterally decide to violate the sovereignty of a foreign nation whom you are not at war with the assassinate a suspected terrorist who just also happen to be a citizen of the United States and as such is entitled to all of the protections and rights that status grants.

I don't have to like it. But the reason why we protect the free speech of the KKK protesters is because I don't want the government to censor me either. The reason I protest the summary execution of a fellow citizen without due process is because I don't want to have my rights to likewise be dismissed and find myself summarily executed without due process.


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.



Except that in this case, I am a citizen of the United States, and actions like this scare the shit out of me.

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25-01-2015, 06:34 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
Recent events proved even more that muslim values completly contradict all the values of a modern democratic society.

As such, muslims can not be part of our society and should go and live amongst their own value systems.

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25-01-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
(25-01-2015 06:34 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Recent events proved even more that muslim values completly contradict all the values of a modern democratic society.

As such, muslims can not be part of our society and should go and live amongst their own value systems.

Absolutely.

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25-01-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Threat of Islam
Bottom line -- whack-a-doodles abound.

There's no shortage of assholes in ANY religion.....

By process of elimination, somewhere you could find the most abusive, mean, and downright dangerous Moslem, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or even a Pastafarian.

Believing in ANY invisible avenger isn't likely to make you more peaceful.

.......................................

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25-01-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(25-01-2015 11:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Bottom line -- whack-a-doodles abound.

There's no shortage of assholes in ANY religion.....

By process of elimination, somewhere you could find the most abusive, mean, and downright dangerous Moslem, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or even a Pastafarian.

Believing in ANY invisible avenger isn't likely to make you more peaceful.

Pasta is peace!

Anyone who disagrees must boil!
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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: Threat of Islam
(25-01-2015 12:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-01-2015 11:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Bottom line -- whack-a-doodles abound.

There's no shortage of assholes in ANY religion.....

By process of elimination, somewhere you could find the most abusive, mean, and downright dangerous Moslem, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or even a Pastafarian.

Believing in ANY invisible avenger isn't likely to make you more peaceful.

Pasta is peace!

Anyone who disagrees must boil!
Angry

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