Tiberius Caesar
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04-04-2015, 11:13 AM
Tiberius Caesar
In a "did Jesus exist" debate a theist has asked me "Do you believe Tiberius Caesar existed? If so, why?" What is the best way to answer that?

I'm tempted to answer "No. Tiberius was a character invented by Lew Wallace in the novel Ben Hur."

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04-04-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
(04-04-2015 11:13 AM)f stop Wrote:  In a "did Jesus exist" debate a theist has asked me "Do you believe Tiberius Caesar existed? If so, why?" What is the best way to answer that?

I'm tempted to answer "No. Tiberius was a character invented by Lew Wallace in the novel Ben Hur."

He's probably setting up for something like the "10/42 apologetic," which claims that there are more historical sources for Jesus than Tiberius.

Matthew Ferguson destroys this argument here.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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04-04-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
(04-04-2015 11:57 AM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 11:13 AM)f stop Wrote:  In a "did Jesus exist" debate a theist has asked me "Do you believe Tiberius Caesar existed? If so, why?" What is the best way to answer that?

I'm tempted to answer "No. Tiberius was a character invented by Lew Wallace in the novel Ben Hur."

He's probably setting up for something like the "10/42 apologetic," which claims that there are more historical sources for Jesus than Tiberius.

Matthew Ferguson destroys this argument here.

Excellent!Bowing

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04-04-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
KtS, thanks!

"Excellent" is an understatement.

I have been up all night (literally not figuratively) reading that and disappearing off via the links.

I couldn't see it in our library so I've added it to the Blog section.

Very impressive and readable piece of work.

Yes

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04-04-2015, 08:29 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
(04-04-2015 08:18 PM)DLJ Wrote:  KtS, thanks!

"Excellent" is an understatement.

I have been up all night (literally not figuratively) reading that and disappearing off via the links.

I couldn't see it in our library so I've added it to the Blog section.

Very impressive and readable piece of work.

Yes

I agree, and while I knew most if not all of this information, it is put together rather well, nice find. Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-04-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
If you want to have some fun with the fucker you could quote Tacitus:

Quote:Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.


It's probably a later xtian forgery but sometimes you need to play in the other guy's home park!

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04-04-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
Whenever an apologetic windbag throws this line of thinking my way, just like my SIL tried to do a year ago, I can't help but snicker and then shock the hell out of them with my defense. In my SIL's case, she was using Homer or Socrates or Alexander the Great. I replied that I agree with her, that it's perfectly understandable to have doubts about the liklihood of someone from antiquity actually existing, given that record-keeping and technology were obviously lacking.

But here's the deal: First, making a case that someone else could just as likely not have existed doesn't strengthen your case for your human deity existing, in fact it weakens your argument because once I agree with you, your case disappears. We both agree that the other person's ancient character didn't exist.

And that dovetails into my final point I make. These types of arguments are so weak because if my character from antiquity never existed, nothing changes in my life, but if their deity never existed, their entire belief system and eternity are shot. Why would someone so important to the "eternal souls" of every human being (who ever existed or will exist) leave something so crucial to chance and in the hands of a mere "42" sources?

It's such a bad argument I am shocked it still gets used.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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04-04-2015, 11:57 PM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
They have only bad arguments to choose from.

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05-04-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
Something I find quite hilarious about Christians of any persuasion - Their desperation to prove the historical veracity of anything in the bible. If any of it turns out to have written or some other form of archaeological evidence it merely demonstrates that the various bible authors are not entirely devoid of the ability to write history - it certainly isn't proof of any god or his offspring.

So what if Yeshua did exist? Prove he was the son of god. A divine being. Not faith. Not belief. Actual proof.

Whether the existence of any other historical personality can be proved conclusively has absolutely no relevance to the claims of divinity made for Jesus.
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05-04-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Tiberius Caesar
(04-04-2015 08:29 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 08:18 PM)DLJ Wrote:  KtS, thanks!

"Excellent" is an understatement.

I have been up all night (literally not figuratively) reading that and disappearing off via the links.

I couldn't see it in our library so I've added it to the Blog section.

Very impressive and readable piece of work.

Yes

I agree, and while I knew most if not all of this information, it is put together rather well, nice find. Thumbsup

I also agree! I spent my afternoon reading a few of his posts. Really informative and enjoyable. And I posted a link to one on Facebook saying happy Easter! Big Grin I hope some unsuspecting Christian reads it Laugh out load

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