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02-10-2012, 12:56 PM
RE: Time
(02-10-2012 12:49 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Time is one dimension of the four-dimensional space-time in which we exist. Are you denying the existence of the other three dimensions except as mental constructs?

no, they do exist (as time does) as methods in which we as beings with minds understand and relate to the world.

It's like asking if love exists, yes as an idea that most humans throughout history have used to relate to each other but does it exist as some "thing" outside humanity that we can sense through the 5 senses? no

Modern science is stuck in the Cartesian subject philosophy and philosophers throughout time have pointed this out. You guys believe that there is 1. A perception of time and B. Another Time that exists beyond this perception.

Philosophy has moved beyond that notion and proven Descartes and Kant wrong by basically pointing out the fact that there is no way to possibly step outside of your own person hood to access this "reality". This does not mean that there is no real tree or building, this just means that how we perceive and understand the world is always going to be based on our way of perceiving and understanding things which are learned culturally (everything we know we learned from society around us).

So if one states that Time exists beyond our perception then they are basically saying that there is no way to access this "real time" which means one is saying x exists and then saying they can never prove that x exists. This is logically wrong no matter what one believes in, whether it's a christian saying that about a god, a parent saying that about Santa, or someone saying that about time.

Reality IS THE PROCESS in which the mind relates to the outside physical world by use of concepts, ideologies, beliefs, recollections, memories etc etc. that are themselves influenced by the particular environment we grow up in.

There is no separation of perception and reality, perception of real objects is part of the real experience and shapes our reality.

Again this perception does not originate from the individual subject (that would be what the bleep woo woo), it originates from the outside culture that shapes perceptions in which the individual goes about understanding things.

Example: We understand 9-11 in a different way than people in other countries do or people 100 years from now will.

So if we didn't exist, neither would space-time?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: Time
(02-10-2012 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 12:49 PM)I and I Wrote:  no, they do exist (as time does) as methods in which we as beings with minds understand and relate to the world.

It's like asking if love exists, yes as an idea that most humans throughout history have used to relate to each other but does it exist as some "thing" outside humanity that we can sense through the 5 senses? no

Modern science is stuck in the Cartesian subject philosophy and philosophers throughout time have pointed this out. You guys believe that there is 1. A perception of time and B. Another Time that exists beyond this perception.

Philosophy has moved beyond that notion and proven Descartes and Kant wrong by basically pointing out the fact that there is no way to possibly step outside of your own person hood to access this "reality". This does not mean that there is no real tree or building, this just means that how we perceive and understand the world is always going to be based on our way of perceiving and understanding things which are learned culturally (everything we know we learned from society around us).

So if one states that Time exists beyond our perception then they are basically saying that there is no way to access this "real time" which means one is saying x exists and then saying they can never prove that x exists. This is logically wrong no matter what one believes in, whether it's a christian saying that about a god, a parent saying that about Santa, or someone saying that about time.

Reality IS THE PROCESS in which the mind relates to the outside physical world by use of concepts, ideologies, beliefs, recollections, memories etc etc. that are themselves influenced by the particular environment we grow up in.

There is no separation of perception and reality, perception of real objects is part of the real experience and shapes our reality.

Again this perception does not originate from the individual subject (that would be what the bleep woo woo), it originates from the outside culture that shapes perceptions in which the individual goes about understanding things.

Example: We understand 9-11 in a different way than people in other countries do or people 100 years from now will.

So if we didn't exist, neither would space-time?

As someone living in 2012 with past scientific findings at hand, historical findings and basic logic learned from current and different cultures I in 2012 would say "it is very logical to assume that space time existed before humans". The process of me stating that is purely from a subject that is influenced by my present and past cultures making a judgement on something I am not currently experiencing.
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03-10-2012, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 01:23 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Time
http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/ti...ce-f9.html

Relevant bunch of speculation for anyone interested.

I am that I am, now; I can agree to time not existing beyond the subjective, but that is an internal agreement that communicates falsely to the external world. To believe in objective time is essentially to believe that you are I AM as well.

Besides, there's a lot of science that is mathematical convenience masquerading as concrete reality. Big Grin

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03-10-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: Time
(02-10-2012 12:49 PM)I and I Wrote:  We understand 9-11 in a different way than people in other countries do or people 100 years from now will.

That does not mean it did not actually happen, as an objective event.
OP still is conflating perception with object of perception, implying the is no real object apart form the perception. If OP says that's not what OP is saying, then OP needs to study the use of language.

We'll see how her "Reality is a perceptive process" bullshit works out for her when they lay her in a grave, and walk away, and she is no longer processing.

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04-10-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: Time
(03-10-2012 12:08 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  http://www.physicsdiscussionforum.org/ti...ce-f9.html

Relevant bunch of speculation for anyone interested.

I am that I am, now; I can agree to time not existing beyond the subjective, but that is an internal agreement that communicates falsely to the external world. To believe in objective time is essentially to believe that you are I AM as well.

Besides, there's a lot of science that is mathematical convenience masquerading as concrete reality. Big Grin

I believe that time is more than an "individual subjective experience" I was pointing out earlier that what we call "subjective experience" is more than our own individual experience, many of our beliefs, knowledge, methods of understanding the world or looking at the world are influenced by the society around us.
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04-10-2012, 10:17 AM
RE: Time
(03-10-2012 01:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 12:49 PM)I and I Wrote:  We understand 9-11 in a different way than people in other countries do or people 100 years from now will.

That does not mean it did not actually happen, as an objective event.
OP still is conflating perception with object of perception, implying the is no real object apart form the perception. If OP says that's not what OP is saying, then OP needs to study the use of language.

We'll see how her "Reality is a perceptive process" bullshit works out for her when they lay her in a grave, and walk away, and she is no longer processing.


Are you stupid? I have said several times that I don't believe in the "objects don't exist outside our minds"

In 3 posts, fuckball will once again claim that I am claiming "objects don't exist outside our mind".

I love how this fuckhead admits he has no clue what time is, (property, dimension, entity etc etc) but KNOWS, FUCKING KNOWS it exists......out there in woo ville.


The existence of things independent of the human mind doesn't prove the existence of time that is independent of human minds. Imagine this fuckball when his parents told him that santa doesn't exist....."but mom and dad, santa exists because there are these real presents and a real tree".

psst hey stupid, santa is an idea, belief, concept that humans use to associate REAL THINGS together, that doesn't fucking mean that the idea is true simply because the objects are real, kinda like how when god peeps use earth or flowers or bibles to prove a god exists, it doesn't work for them and it doesn't work for you.
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05-10-2012, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2012 08:37 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Time
(04-10-2012 10:17 AM)I and I Wrote:  Are you stupid? I have said several times that I don't believe in the "objects don't exist outside our minds"

In 3 posts, fuckball will once again claim that I am claiming "objects don't exist outside our mind".

[snip]

The existence of things independent of the human mind doesn't prove the existence of time that is independent of human minds. Imagine this fuckball when his parents told him that santa doesn't exist....."but mom and dad, santa exists because there are these real presents and a real tree".

psst hey stupid, santa is an idea, belief, concept that humans use to associate REAL THINGS together, that doesn't fucking mean that the idea is true simply because the objects are real, kinda like how when god peeps use earth or flowers or bibles to prove a god exists, it doesn't work for them and it doesn't work for you.
Oh, the irony. Calling someone stupid while in the same breath committing several logical fallacies (ad hominem, strawman, non sequitur, argument from ignorance). Laughat

(04-10-2012 10:17 AM)I and I Wrote:  I love how this fuckhead admits he has no clue what time is, (property, dimension, entity etc etc) but KNOWS, FUCKING KNOWS it exists......out there in woo ville.
We don't know what dark matter/energy is either, yet we can observe it's effects. You seriously need to educate yourself.

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05-10-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Time
General Relativity predicts that time slows as one approaches a black hole, and at as we approach a singularity, (a black hole), it comes to a stop. I'm not too sure when they will be able to verify the stopping, but time dilation has been verified, (the two clocks).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation...e_dilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Singularity
Everything going on in our brains from which memory and perception arise, is chemically mediated, which is ultimately happening ONLY because of quantum mechanics.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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08-10-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: Time
"as we approach a black hole" I don't know how many black holes you have approached in your life time.......but i would like to talk to someone who has.....oh wait, nobody has.


It is stupid to say dark matter causes x then say you don't know what dark matter is. Is that what science is doing these days? This logic fails for the same reason it fails when theists use it. Objects existing isn't proof that a god exists any more than it is that time (as an outside the mind thing, independent of minds) exists.
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08-10-2012, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 05:00 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Time
Stick your fucking head in the oven, sweetie. Then come and talk to us about your false dichotomies.

BTW, go tell Steven Hawking about your thoughts about black holes. We'' see if you can even get in the door, (or pass airport security).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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