Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
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24-08-2011, 08:57 AM
Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey.

Lindsey turns 82 in November, and he still gets on TV to promote his foolishness, despite his failures as a prophet. But he could drop dead any day now, and of course he won't get "raptured," so we don't have much time. His teachings have poisoned uncounted numbers of lives over the past 41 years; I have heard of cases going back to the 1970's where people who read his books or listened to his talks have despaired of an earthly future, so they dropped out of college, quit their jobs and waited for the end times. A lot of good that did them.

And that doesn't count the people who experienced psychological trauma from Lindsey's nonsense and made religious commitments they wouldn't have made with normal thinking processes.

If Camping deserved humiliation because of his sideshow, Lindsey deserves it even more for creating the circus. If you have had bad experiences with Hal Lindsey's theology, feel free to post them here. Or you can correspond with me privately at: holyspiritdenier@gmail.com
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24-08-2011, 02:06 PM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(24-08-2011 08:57 AM)advancedatheist Wrote:  The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey.

Lindsey turns 82 in November, and he still gets on TV to promote his foolishness, despite his failures as a prophet. But he could drop dead any day now, and of course he won't get "raptured," so we don't have much time. His teachings have poisoned uncounted numbers of lives over the past 41 years; I have heard of cases going back to the 1970's where people who read his books or listened to his talks have despaired of an earthly future, so they dropped out of college, quit their jobs and waited for the end times. A lot of good that did them.

And that doesn't count the people who experienced psychological trauma from Lindsey's nonsense and made religious commitments they wouldn't have made with normal thinking processes.

If Camping deserved humiliation because of his sideshow, Lindsey deserves it even more for creating the circus. If you have had bad experiences with Hal Lindsey's theology, feel free to post them here. Or you can correspond with me privately at: holyspiritdenier@gmail.com

How far back do you want to go? Jesus Christ was a doomsday profit....

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

He was the first dooms day prophet of his religion (if you consider him Christian) and the first to get it wrong. It is all his doomsday preaching that current prophets, profit from. And man can they rake in the $$$$!!! I think we can all agree his doomsday theology had far reaching implications. He owes us all a little more that an apology.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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24-08-2011, 02:18 PM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(24-08-2011 02:06 PM)myst32 Wrote:  How far back do you want to go? Jesus Christ was a doomsday profit....

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

He was the first dooms day prophet of his religion (if you consider him Christian) and the first to get it wrong. It is all his doomsday preaching that current prophets, profit from. And man can they rake in the $$$$!!! I think we can all agree his doomsday theology had far reaching implications. He owes us all a little more that an apology.

I don't see how we can get an apology from long-dead Jesus. We have a window of opportunity with Hal Lindsey, unless he conveniently announces he has Alzheimer's and has to withdraw from pubic view until he dies.

Shaming him into apologizing would also set an example which will put these other charlatans on notice that we've figured out their scam.
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25-08-2011, 08:36 AM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(24-08-2011 02:18 PM)advancedatheist Wrote:  
(24-08-2011 02:06 PM)myst32 Wrote:  How far back do you want to go? Jesus Christ was a doomsday profit....

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

He was the first dooms day prophet of his religion (if you consider him Christian) and the first to get it wrong. It is all his doomsday preaching that current prophets, profit from. And man can they rake in the $$$$!!! I think we can all agree his doomsday theology had far reaching implications. He owes us all a little more that an apology.

I don't see how we can get an apology from long-dead Jesus. We have a window of opportunity with Hal Lindsey, unless he conveniently announces he has Alzheimer's and has to withdraw from pubic view until he dies.

Shaming him into apologizing would also set an example which will put these other charlatans on notice that we've figured out their scam.

Your not going to get an apology from Hal Lindsey any easier than a dead Jesus. I was thinking your idea was more of a "PR" stunt than a realistic attempt at an apology. If Hal Lindsey wrote a book tomorrow that the world would end by the end of the month you can rest assure he would make a profit from it. And if an atheist started a campaign to get an apology he would promptly ignore it. I think it is a great idea as a stunt to make the public aware.... However, I think asking for such a thing from an 80+ year old man would probably backfire.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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30-08-2011, 12:29 AM
 
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Your post: "The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey." \
------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a great many real problems facing our species at this time: sinking aquifers, depleted ocean resources, retreating glaciers, nuclear weapons*, pandemic disease (AIDS), drought, famine, air pollution, water pollution, genocide, nationalism, racism, and many more. These things deserve our attention; Hal Lindsey does not. You are promoting the man by allegedly demanding an apology, so much so that I would wonder just what you plan to accomplish.

Who would you plan to write to? Hal Lindsey? I find such a scheme to be disingenuous.

There are on any given day thousands of con-artists taking advantage of gullible people by selling religion, cult membership, transformation programs, and so on worldwide. Hal Lindsey is a tiny, insignificant player; the only people he affects have some responsibility for their own choices as to what they believe and act on. An apology from Hal Lindsey or a thousand others is not going to make the suckers any smarter.

People in the United States commonly vote for politicians based on religious affiliations. People in the United States for the most part are on average unlikely to knowingly vote for an atheist. They would be more likely to vote for some person who made impossible metaphysical claims about gods, life, and life after death. How would getting an apology from Hal Lindsey affect this? It would have no effect at all.

There is no sense in asking sociopaths of his ilk if they would please be nice. Do you think Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin or Rick Perry are going to apologize any time soon? How about Barack Obama? He would have us believe there is some god by the name of Jesus listening to our prayers.

The only public service you could do is to expose such scams.

People who become cult members or become obsessed with religion also tend to become completely paranoid if they perceive their guru or organization is being attacked. They tend to become more loyal to the cult, not less so. Planting the seed of critical reasoning, pointing to real world evidence that contradicts their delusional beliefs, there might be a positive, wholesome result at a future date. Attempting to effect a quick fix by demonizing some con-artist is not conducive to a reasoned response.

One cannot realistically expect undereducated or delusional people to acquire a broad education and critical thinking skills by demanding that psychopaths of the world apologize. Even if Hal Lindsey and thousands of others made a mass apology, it would not help suckers and potential suckers.

It is people who have not become followers who can be helped. If you were to put up such a website, you could also devote some of it to advise from people who freed themselves from cults of personality, personal transformation cults or mind-control cults, and religious cults.

------------------------------------------------------------------
One problem I see with this site, http://www.TheThinkingAthest.com, is that it is relatively unfocused, designed to get as many hits on advertisements as possible by being all-inclusive. People can come to this site and discuss baseball, or attempt to convert people to their religion, or look for sex, or just about anything else that one might find on a chat site.

There is little or no organized effort to educate the general public in critical thinking once you get past the home page. That is because it is shaped by the messages such as yours, my own, and what other people post here. I don’t expect it to get any better. I am just as likely to find someone ranting against atheists here as not. There are quite a few Bible-thumpers here, also.

And unfortunately, at least for me, the text editing features are so slow as to make it not worth my time.

------------------------------------------------------------------

* Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons that are mainly there to intimidate each other (and perhaps China in the case of India) over conflicts of religion that go back hundreds of years to the time of the Mogul invasion of India. Currently the Taliban is attempting to take control of those weapons.
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30-08-2011, 05:41 AM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(24-08-2011 08:57 AM)advancedatheist Wrote:  The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey.

Lindsey turns 82 in November, and he still gets on TV to promote his foolishness, despite his failures as a prophet. But he could drop dead any day now, and of course he won't get "raptured," so we don't have much time. His teachings have poisoned uncounted numbers of lives over the past 41 years; I have heard of cases going back to the 1970's where people who read his books or listened to his talks have despaired of an earthly future, so they dropped out of college, quit their jobs and waited for the end times. A lot of good that did them.

And that doesn't count the people who experienced psychological trauma from Lindsey's nonsense and made religious commitments they wouldn't have made with normal thinking processes.

If Camping deserved humiliation because of his sideshow, Lindsey deserves it even more for creating the circus. If you have had bad experiences with Hal Lindsey's theology, feel free to post them here. Or you can correspond with me privately at: holyspiritdenier@gmail.com

Hello AA, I was curious as to this post, as I here often of Hal Lindsay, though I am not familiar with his theology.

I am a Christian, and I am also a Pre-trib positionist, so, I am a target for both athiests as well as other Christians, due to the popular trend of a post-trib position.

As a whole, I do have to say that "psychological trauma" is not something that good exposition should produce, and while I am tempted to inquire about Hal and his disservice to humanity, I would rather know what it is you know about the Rapture and the Return of Christ.

Being new to this forum, I am not yet aquainted with it, and I hope I do not offend with the questions I pose.

I am aware that there are many who grow up in the "church," or, "religion," and when they get out on there own, turn from the "faith" of their parents, or whatever type of organized religion they were associated, but, I am glad that some of them have been exposed to God's word, from which these two doctrines come from.

If you could give me a short note on your knowledge of scriptural doctrine (hope this isn't too personal), since it is scriptural doctrine you reject, I would be appreciative.

This is new to me, so, don't go too hard on me. I am used to talking with athiests on Christian forums, and of course, as a believer, I feel they are led there, at least some times, by God. But here, I am in your environment, so to speak, and, as I said, I am not yet familiar with those here or the forum itself.

S.T.
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30-08-2011, 06:11 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2011 06:31 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(30-08-2011 12:29 AM)Araktsu Wrote:  ------------------------------------------------------------------
Your post: "The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey." \
------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a great many real problems facing our species at this time: sinking aquifers, depleted ocean resources, retreating glaciers, nuclear weapons*, pandemic disease (AIDS), drought, famine, air pollution, water pollution, genocide, nationalism, racism, and many more. These things deserve our attention; Hal Lindsey does not. You are promoting the man by allegedly demanding an apology, so much so that I would wonder just what you plan to accomplish.

Who would you plan to write to? Hal Lindsey? I find such a scheme to be disingenuous.

There are on any given day thousands of con-artists taking advantage of gullible people by selling religion, cult membership, transformation programs, and so on worldwide. Hal Lindsey is a tiny, insignificant player; the only people he affects have some responsibility for their own choices as to what they believe and act on. An apology from Hal Lindsey or a thousand others is not going to make the suckers any smarter.

People in the United States commonly vote for politicians based on religious affiliations. People in the United States for the most part are on average unlikely to knowingly vote for an atheist. They would be more likely to vote for some person who made impossible metaphysical claims about gods, life, and life after death. How would getting an apology from Hal Lindsey affect this? It would have no effect at all.

There is no sense in asking sociopaths of his ilk if they would please be nice. Do you think Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin or Rick Perry are going to apologize any time soon? How about Barack Obama? He would have us believe there is some god by the name of Jesus listening to our prayers.

The only public service you could do is to expose such scams.

People who become cult members or become obsessed with religion also tend to become completely paranoid if they perceive their guru or organization is being attacked. They tend to become more loyal to the cult, not less so. Planting the seed of critical reasoning, pointing to real world evidence that contradicts their delusional beliefs, there might be a positive, wholesome result at a future date. Attempting to effect a quick fix by demonizing some con-artist is not conducive to a reasoned response.

One cannot realistically expect undereducated or delusional people to acquire a broad education and critical thinking skills by demanding that psychopaths of the world apologize. Even if Hal Lindsey and thousands of others made a mass apology, it would not help suckers and potential suckers.

It is people who have not become followers who can be helped. If you were to put up such a website, you could also devote some of it to advise from people who freed themselves from cults of personality, personal transformation cults or mind-control cults, and religious cults.

------------------------------------------------------------------
One problem I see with this site, http://www.TheThinkingAthest.com, is that it is relatively unfocused, designed to get as many hits on advertisements as possible by being all-inclusive. People can come to this site and discuss baseball, or attempt to convert people to their religion, or look for sex, or just about anything else that one might find on a chat site.

There is little or no organized effort to educate the general public in critical thinking once you get past the home page. That is because it is shaped by the messages such as yours, my own, and what other people post here. I don’t expect it to get any better. I am just as likely to find someone ranting against atheists here as not. There are quite a few Bible-thumpers here, also.

And unfortunately, at least for me, the text editing features are so slow as to make it not worth my time.

------------------------------------------------------------------

* Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons that are mainly there to intimidate each other (and perhaps China in the case of India) over conflicts of religion that go back hundreds of years to the time of the Mogul invasion of India. Currently the Taliban is attempting to take control of those weapons.

Hallo! You sound like an intelligent person with some sound rational ideas. BUT...this post is too negative. It's easy to be critical. Advancedatheist has made a good point. Hal Lindsay should be made accountable for his bullshit. Jokers like him influence the great unwashed uneducated public, and they vote. So politicians take these public figures seriously. Guess where Billy Graham was when George Bush senior attacked Saddam's forces in Kuwait? He spent the night in the White House. Check out what Billy Graham and characters like John Hagee have to say about the rapture on their websites. Ask yourself whether its possible George Junior and his cronies were (?are) privately dreaming about a holocaust. You think we shouldn't protest?

Instead of being critical, come up with some positive solutions! Offer to help.

Have you ever set up a website and tried to establish an internet presence? Make a good video for youtube? If you have, then you will know how hard it is. And expensive. I think this forum is excellent.



(30-08-2011 05:41 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(24-08-2011 08:57 AM)advancedatheist Wrote:  The widespread mocking and humiliation of Harold Camping earlier this year got to me formulate a partly-baked idea: I would like to see a write-in campaign demanding an apology from a much bigger source of this doomsday theology who has worked at it since 1970, namely, Hal Lindsey.

Lindsey turns 82 in November, and he still gets on TV to promote his foolishness, despite his failures as a prophet. But he could drop dead any day now, and of course he won't get "raptured," so we don't have much time. His teachings have poisoned uncounted numbers of lives over the past 41 years; I have heard of cases going back to the 1970's where people who read his books or listened to his talks have despaired of an earthly future, so they dropped out of college, quit their jobs and waited for the end times. A lot of good that did them.

And that doesn't count the people who experienced psychological trauma from Lindsey's nonsense and made religious commitments they wouldn't have made with normal thinking processes.

If Camping deserved humiliation because of his sideshow, Lindsey deserves it even more for creating the circus. If you have had bad experiences with Hal Lindsey's theology, feel free to post them here. Or you can correspond with me privately at: holyspiritdenier@gmail.com

Hello AA, I was curious as to this post, as I here often of Hal Lindsay, though I am not familiar with his theology.

I am a Christian, and I am also a Pre-trib positionist, so, I am a target for both athiests as well as other Christians, due to the popular trend of a post-trib position.

As a whole, I do have to say that "psychological trauma" is not something that good exposition should produce, and while I am tempted to inquire about Hal and his disservice to humanity, I would rather know what it is you know about the Rapture and the Return of Christ.

Being new to this forum, I am not yet aquainted with it, and I hope I do not offend with the questions I pose.

I am aware that there are many who grow up in the "church," or, "religion," and when they get out on there own, turn from the "faith" of their parents, or whatever type of organized religion they were associated, but, I am glad that some of them have been exposed to God's word, from which these two doctrines come from.

If you could give me a short note on your knowledge of scriptural doctrine (hope this isn't too personal), since it is scriptural doctrine you reject, I would be appreciative.

This is new to me, so, don't go too hard on me. I am used to talking with athiests on Christian forums, and of course, as a believer, I feel they are led there, at least some times, by God. But here, I am in your environment, so to speak, and, as I said, I am not yet familiar with those here or the forum itself.

S.T.

Hi S.T., welcome!

Your comment wasn't addressed to me specifically but I'll discuss the rapture with you if you're interested. I'm not a veteran here but have been around long enough to welcome you. You will find most people here have a very solid understanding of the Bible. Those who don't are deep thinkers and usually very intelligent and open to new ideas. You will probably find that most people on this forum are more interested in the merit of an argument than the authority of the writer, but if you are interested in my credentials I've been studying the history of the Bible for about 6 years. So...I open the door to you if you want....make a statement about the rapture/Hal. Don't worry too much about offending anyone! As long as you are genuine and honest and real you are very welcome. Mark
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30-08-2011, 07:22 AM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(30-08-2011 06:11 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi S.T., welcome!

Your comment wasn't addressed to me specifically but I'll discuss the rapture with you if you're interested. I'm not a veteran here but have been around long enough to welcome you. You will find most people here have a very solid understanding of the Bible. Those who don't are deep thinkers and usually very intelligent and open to new ideas. You will probably find that most people on this forum are more interested in the merit of an argument than the authority of the writer, but if you are interested in my credentials I've been studying the history of the Bible for about 6 years. So...I open the door to you if you want....make a statement about the rapture/Hal. Don't worry too much about offending anyone! As long as you are genuine and honest and real you are very welcome. Mark

Hey Mark, I appreciate the welcome and invitation to converse.

I am just guessing, but I take it you are an athiest? My first question would be: you say you have been studying Bible history for six years, I would be curious as to whether this involves bible history primarily, or the actual doctrine derived from the bible. I should probably just say up front that as a believer, I accept only scripture (meaning the 66 books traditionally held as inspired) as something I use as a standard of measure, and include my own beliefs as subject to error...I don't consider myself to be without flaw in either thinking or doctrine.

Quote:So...I open the door to you if you want....make a statement about the rapture/Hal.

And I appreciate that. As I said, I am unfamiliar with "Hal," and actually avoid extrabiblical literature for the most part. I spend more time discussing the various beliefs concerning the Return of Christ, which, as a pre-trib believer, I view as a separate occurrence than the "catching away" of the Church.

So my first question (and this is difficult when discussing this with someone that may/may not reject this topic as well as Jesus Himself as being the Savior) would follow more along the lines of "Why do you study the Bible?"

I would think that it would be similar to that of believers that study what they consider false religions or cults, and the purpose is to discredit the topic of study.

Along with that question, would be, "How did you begin upon this study?"

And lastly, in regards to the rapture, and the Return of Christ, from an objective view, with the study you have done, what view do you feel the bible leans more to, pre-trib, or post?

Have to get to work, but I will also say that there is no need to address the actual term rapture, I understand it is a modern term representing the concept found in scripture.

Again, thanks for the welcome, I cannot guarantee the "merit" of my argument, as I honestly have no intention of arguing. I understand that I cannot change minds, and do not attempt to. It is said, "Whatever I can talk you in to, someone can talk you out of." And I believe that.

Okay, take it easy on me,

S.T.
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30-08-2011, 09:43 AM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
(30-08-2011 12:29 AM)Araktsu Wrote:  There are a great many real problems facing our species at this time: sinking aquifers, depleted ocean resources, retreating glaciers, nuclear weapons*, pandemic disease (AIDS), drought, famine, air pollution, water pollution, genocide, nationalism, racism, and many more. These things deserve our attention; Hal Lindsey does not.

No, I suspect these problems don't "deserve our attention" that much. Humanity's living conditions have gotten dramatically better in the past few decades. Look up Hans Rosling's videos on YouTube, and Steven Pinker's video about the decline in violence. Pinker also has a book coming out in the fall supporting his thesis about this decline.

I also like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8SLIt7xZxU

Quote:You are promoting the man by allegedly demanding an apology, so much so that I would wonder just what you plan to accomplish.

Hal Lindsey has caused a lot of psychological harm, and he has done so for 40 years now. Given his stature in the end times hustle, getting him to apologize would put the other christian doomsday kooks on notice that they need to tone it down. I'd rather see the atheist community target Lindsey for an apology than waste time on, say, the Skepchick's dislike of beta males who ask her out for coffee.
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30-08-2011, 09:49 AM
RE: Time for a Hal Lindsey Apology Project?
Hello S.T.,

I'll add my welcome too. If you've come here because you're genuinely interested in other points of view about religion, you're sure to be enlightened.

(30-08-2011 07:22 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  As I said, I am unfamiliar with "Hal," and actually avoid extrabiblical literature for the most part.

You generally avoid extrabiblical literature? Oh dear. Huh

Well, I think we need to set up a reading program for you. Smile

I'll start by suggesting Bertrand Russell's classic, Why I Am Not a Christian.

Anybody else? What other books would you add to S.T.'s reading list?

Quote: So my first question . . . would follow more along the lines of "Why do you study the Bible?"

Why would an atheist read and study the Bible? Lots of reasons. Here are three:

1. Because for better or worse, the Bible permeates our language and our culture. You can't be considered an educated person if you don't have a basic familiarity with it. One of the best-known atheists of our time, Richard Dawkins, has said, "[A]n atheistic world-view provides no justification for cutting the Bible, and other sacred books, out of our education."

2. Because the Bible is constantly thumped, waved in our faces, and shoved down our throats as being the Good Book, God's nifty Guide to Everything, which all decent people are supposed to believe and follow. But we see that much of it--and maybe most of it--is anything but good. We study the Bible so we're able to recognize and expose the ignorance, cruelty, and primitive thinking it contains.

3. Because some things in the Bible are genuinely wise and beautiful and inspiring, and therefore worth reading. Dawkins calls Ecclesiastes "sublime." And some of the story-telling in the Bible, from the point of view of literature, is first-rate.

Quote: . . . in regards to the rapture, and the Return of Christ, from an objective view, with the study you have done, what view do you feel the bible leans more to, pre-trib, or post?

I'll let Mark answer that for himself, but might I suggest that this is not a fruitful line of questioning on a board titled "The Thinking Atheist"? We're not "pre-trib" or "post-trib" here, we're "no-trib."

Quote:Okay, take it easy on me,

I don't know if we can guarantee that. We atheists and agnostics don't even take it easy on each other! Big Grin Just keep in mind that attacking someone's beliefs or ideas is not the same as attacking the person.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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