Time to discard religion
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02-03-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Time to discard religion
(01-03-2014 01:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  "I believe in a man made delusion designed to control and subjugate the masses." Only then can we progress as a society.
You're preaching the choir here,unless people choose to stop lying to themselves we cannot do anything to change it.
Quote:Now let’s look at Saudi Arabian countries, a few come to mind, they are most likely the most devout religious people on the planet...it isn't a past time for them, or a moderate belief, they are willing to die for their beliefs...and they subsequently have the lowest rankings for quality of life, schooling etc.
That's not a fair comparison.. Saudi arabia is a 3rd world country they may be rich&industrialized but their culture is stuck in the dark ages.. religion may be a contributing factor but overall it has to do with their tribal culture,lack civil liberties,freedom of speech&expression.

America is also a very religious country 90% of the population identify themselves as religious and they are a superpower so your comparison doesn't make much sense.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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02-03-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: Time to discard religion
(02-03-2014 10:54 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 01:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  "I believe in a man made delusion designed to control and subjugate the masses." Only then can we progress as a society.
You're preaching the choir here,unless people choose to stop lying to themselves we cannot do anything to change it.
Quote:Now let’s look at Saudi Arabian countries, a few come to mind, they are most likely the most devout religious people on the planet...it isn't a past time for them, or a moderate belief, they are willing to die for their beliefs...and they subsequently have the lowest rankings for quality of life, schooling etc.
That's not a fair comparison.. Saudi arabia is a 3rd world country they may be rich&industrialized but their culture is stuck in the dark ages.. religion may be a contributing factor but overall it has to do with their tribal culture,lack civil liberties,freedom of speech&expression.

America is also a very religious country 90% of the population identify themselves as religious and they are a superpower so your comparison doesn't make much sense.

There are a number of reasons for the differences, but one of the biggest is the US is a secular government with clear separation of church and state. So while we may have large number of people who personally believe in god, we don't have clerics running the country or have an official religion. That is not the case in Saudi Arabia (and most other muslim countries), and that is one of the major reasons they remain a third world like place despite the wealth. They are also a monarch and a kleptocracy, so that doesn't help.

On the overall subject, the OP is a dream of mine, but not an expectation. I just don't see the majority of humans finding away to extracate themselves from superstition and ignorance, or even wanting to. Again, look at the US. Despite being a very modern, educated society, we have a vast majority of the population that sill believe in gods, creation myths, and bad science.
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02-03-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Time to discard religion
(02-03-2014 03:19 PM)meremortal Wrote:  There are a number of reasons for the differences, but one of the biggest is the US is a secular government with clear separation of church and state.
That was exactly my point! Religion has jackshit to do with Arabia's or America's status it has more to do with civil freedom and overall development,so saying that religion is a reason why saudi arabia is a 3rd world country is stupid because America is also religious and still is pro-freedom and secular.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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02-03-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: Time to discard religion
If that were to happen quickly, the religious would just feel persecuted and become martyrs and form underground churches and it probably would be a bloody mess.

They feel persecuted already.... and they are the majority.

I do think religion is on it's way out - so many of today's youth are atheist and they do come out about it. It's going to take a couple generations, just like acceptance of gays and women's rights and legal marihuana did. But it sure looks like the process has started, and that makes me happy even if I won't live long enough to see it through.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-03-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: Time to discard religion
(02-03-2014 05:38 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 03:19 PM)meremortal Wrote:  There are a number of reasons for the differences, but one of the biggest is the US is a secular government with clear separation of church and state.
That was exactly my point! Religion has jackshit to do with Arabia's or America's status it has more to do with civil freedom and overall development,so saying that religion is a reason why saudi arabia is a 3rd world country is stupid because America is also religious and still is pro-freedom and secular.

The point I was making was religious societies are not the utopia concept that the religious would like to think they would be. Inevitably religion leads to control and control leads to abuse, and abuse leads to the obvious bad repercussions. As examples I used two current countries that are on opposite ends of the top ranked civilizations...yes, of course there are tons of contributing factors to why they are on opposite ends...but I feel that Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc as countries tightly gripped by the religious fanatics in control shows what can happen when this occurs. I also bring up this point because the religious like to paint the picture of a secular society is the equivalent to evil....not according to the Scandinavian example.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-03-2014, 11:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2014 12:08 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Time to discard religion
(02-03-2014 07:38 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  but I feel that Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc as countries tightly gripped by the religious fanatics in control shows what can happen when this occurs.
Well to be honest north korea is supposed to be atheistic and that country is still a totalitarian regime and not to mention china.

Religion is merely a political tool not a causal factor.. majority of the world population is still religious anyway.
Quote:I also bring up this point because the religious like to paint the picture of a secular society is the equivalent to evil.
Only Religious fanatics/extremists say that normal religious people are not like that.

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Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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03-03-2014, 01:58 AM
RE: Time to discard religion
(01-03-2014 01:36 PM)War Horse Wrote:  ...
Not sure what the answer is...

(01-03-2014 02:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  What's needed is some kind of strategy...
...

(02-03-2014 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  ...
a bloody mess.
...

Yup. There you have it.

To follow Northern Europe into religious apathy, you will need to:

1. Nationalise religion. It does not matter which one is chosen.

In Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes states that the state (sovereign) has authority to assert power over matters of faith and doctrine, and that if he does not do so, he invites discord.

Do this first in order to invite discord Smile

2. Have a Hundred Years' War.

We did 2. then 1. but it probably doesn't matter.

3. Provide transport for dissenters to go off and found some colonies somewhere.


I think this is why the Mars program got its funding.

Or, we could invent some kind of mass-communication tool that enables us to poke fun at, and marginalise, superstitions.

Any ideas?

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03-03-2014, 02:09 AM
RE: Time to discard religion
I don't know, I think in a democracy it will take a majority to discard most things, and I sort of like the idea of freedom of speech, and um, oh yeah, it's a bit scary when I think about one side winning over all, religion or atheism.

When I hear the extreme thinking behind each side what to do with the OTHER, yeah, it's more than a bit scary, the hate you know.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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03-03-2014, 02:25 AM
RE: Time to discard religion
(01-03-2014 01:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Once we as a global society figure out that we need to treat religion like we did racism, and make it a negative stigma, so that when someone professes to believe in such nonsense people look at you in shock, as we do when some tool uses a racist/sexist etc type comment...we have to stop putting people who call themselves reverend/father/preacher/saint etc up on a pedestal, they should be embarrassed to say, "I believe in a man made delusion designed to control and subjugate the masses." Only then can we progress as a society.

Society doesn't need religion to be moral, this is easily proven. Secular societies are better for everyone. Anyone who has paid attention knows that Denmark and Sweden are among the least religious nations in the world. It is also well known that in various rankings of nations by life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, crime rates, schooling, economic equality, standard of living and competitiveness, Denmark and Sweden stand in the first tier.

Now let’s look at Saudi Arabian countries, a few come to mind, they are most likely the most devout religious people on the planet...it isn't a past time for them, or a moderate belief, they are willing to die for their beliefs...and they subsequently have the lowest rankings for quality of life, schooling etc.

Side note, guess what the biggest religious demographic group in prison is? Christian, the smallest? Atheist. The facts are irrefutable. Let go of the delusion, embrace reality, there is no longer a valid reason to cling to fear based delusions of a super genie simply because science hasn’t provided all of the answers yet to the question of LIFE.

I used to just ignore religion as it has no meaning to me, but then again, as I have stated before I can no longer just look the other way. You have to study the effects of religion, and most major religions to be able to identify the bad emotional impacts subjugation causes. Also on the thought that "why take away faith if it helps people get through the day"...I've never really understood how removing a bad way to reason will make it difficult to get through the day. If anything, it would seem that correcting someone's reasoning would significantly increase their chances of getting through their day.

With reliable forms of reasoning comes the capability of crafting conditions that enable people to navigate life's obstacles. By using a more reliable form of reasoning, people are more capable of bringing about conditions that enable them to flourish.

To argue that people need faith is to abandon hope, and to condescend and accuse the faithful of being incapable of understanding the importance of reason and rationality. There are better and worse ways to come to terms with death, to find strength during times of personal crisis, to make meaning and purpose in our lives, to interpret our sense of awe and wonder, and to contribute to human well-being...and the faithful are completely capable of understanding and achieving this..if they would only try.

I just want to say "well written"
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03-03-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Time to discard religion
(01-03-2014 01:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Society doesn't need religion to be moral, this is easily proven. Secular societies are better for everyone. Anyone who has paid attention knows that Denmark and Sweden are among the least religious nations in the world. It is also well known that in various rankings of nations by life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, crime rates, schooling, economic equality, standard of living and competitiveness, Denmark and Sweden stand in the first tier.
Two problems:

1. Correlation doesn't prove causation.

2. I don't know about Sweden, but Denmark has a state church (Lutheran), and about 80% of the population are members of it. I agree with you that they're not very religious - they don't actually go to the churches often or believe much of what they teach. But, if you're going to use them as a model, you should support a state church. No one's better than government at screwing things up.
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