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18-11-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 05:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 03:15 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Deal with it. We are all tired of something. I am tired of my dead end job sitting here night after fucking night logging in drunken visitors to wastes of flesh until 6am in the morning. Tired of trying to go somewhere and going nowhere, while these shitheads that drink excessively somehow continue to hold down jobs where despite being quite immature make far more money than I do. I wish alcohol would kill within a matter of a year if you drink far too much of it.



Most of them probably aren't atheists either. Shocking

When are you all ever gonig to learn: atheism is self-defeating. The OP can't figure out why people are concerned about her being an atheist or how she became one. It's because they care that you don't become a self-defeating loser. Atheism, no matter how you slice it, leads to a diminished self-esteem. It simply has to. I mean case in point: Bird Guy.
Being an atheist INCREASES self-esteem.

Here's what diminishes self-esteem:

"Kneel before God. You're worthless compared to him."
"Confess all your wrong-doings to that priest and suck up your humiliation. You deserve it anyway."
"Shame on you for telling that lie. You deserve to burn for eternity for breaking that commandment."
(From day 1 on this Earth) "You've done nothing... yet... but you're an abominable sinner anyway..."
"No matter how good you are, you've sinned because everyone does."
"You were born with a disability. God could have created you without one, but didn't. It's because.. um.. well... because you're special. Yeah, that's it."
"You can't understand God because you're intellect is limited."
"You don't like earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, and disease? Too bad, you and all humans did it to yourselves."
"God has everything, but we must sacrifice the little we have to give him more. And actually, you own nothing. It already belongs to God."
"God is perfect. You are imperfect."

The list with religion is endless.

With atheism, there is no list.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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18-11-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Tired...
I'm sorry, but I'm about to engage in horrendous Offtopic-ness, and the flames are coming out. You may wish to avert your eyes and move on to my next post.
(18-11-2012 08:24 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're cherry-picking. Are you even aware that you are doing this, or is your confirmation bias so strong that you literally didn't notice the positive posts (that is, the posts reflecting a high self-esteem) outnumber the negative ones by 10 to 1? You took one example and pretended that it represented us all, which is not only stereotyping but a blatant disregard for the evidence surrounding this piece of evidence that you chose.
Nice, Starcrash, but you missed a jot. Call a spade a spade, and an act of false witness an act of false witness. I think Egor's abdicated any right of civility to have us to go easy on his feelings.

Returning to Egor seeing why the Christians pestering the OP care? To all appearances, they DON'T. Let us assume that every single Christian who pesters the OP has the best of intentions in attempting to save her from God by bringing her to God or somesuch like that.

(I highly doubt it. I'd guess it's more a case of "you don't like the same tv shows I like you're an idjit with bad taste waaaah!" or, "huh, that doesn't make sense, how about I expend the least amount of effort possible to construct a flawed theory about how to fit it in my world view". But for the sake of argument, let's assume it.)

Why then do they seem to be consistently engaging in such shitty tactics in advance of this goal? If the Christians in question were actually making an intelligent effort to de-deconvert the OP, why are they consistently coming away with such a flawed view of how she became an atheist? I mean, if I were to take up that task and take it seriously, CORRECTLY identifying and addressing said cause would be something I'd place a very high priority on and expend a lot of effort to do right. By the OP's account, this is exactly what ISN'T happening.

A far simpler explanation is that the Christians in question DON'T give a flying fuck about her faith or absence (note that I do not say lack!) thereof, save maybe in some abstract counting-coup sort of way. This theory has the added benefit of actually being consistent with the limited data set we've been given, in which they do a shitty, shitty job of actually listening to the her, resulting in such insulting comments as "Oh, it's just because you were raised Mormon" and "It's because they care that you don't become a self-defeating loser. Atheism, no matter how you slice it, leads to a diminished self-esteem.
It simply has to." The notion that such insults actually alienate a person from the putative religion of the insulter doesn't seem to be relevant at all, because again, the Christian in question DOESN'T care about the target of the insult.

There, I'm done with that, I've disturbed my calm way, WAY too much for one day (and it's not even 10AM yet), and gone extremely OT in the process. It's just that when I see a person unhappy and other supposed human beings reacting to this like it's blood in the water, I get my hackles up. Egor, if you want to construct a reasonable reply to any of the above, I'll address it in another thread, but not in this one. Sorry to anyone who had to read this but didn't want to. I'll move on to addressing the OP in my next post.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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18-11-2012, 11:28 AM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 03:04 AM)k37713 Wrote:  I am so sick of having a whole conversation with people who say that they want to talk about religion with me...which by the way I usually start off with "you are not going to like what I have to say"..and ending up with people telling me that my extreme upbringing aka Mormonism is responsible for my lack of faith... It's almost as if eyes cloud over when you say that.."Christians" that have never had half a mind to question their own beliefs ..where they came from .. Who they came from..what the history of it..who wrote their so called holy books..look at me like I am just trying to be rebellious. "Ohhhhh.. You grew up Mormon...now I understand"... How is it that no one sees the ridiculousness of their own fairy tale..but somehow they have figured me out.... Ugh..maybe this should go in the rank thread...sorry
There are a few Christians out there I actually respect. They are exactly the ones who DON'T do this kind of shit. They'll sit and talk and listen and actually hear what you're saying rather than fill in the gaps with their own unsupported hypothesis. In short, they're the ones who actually care about people in the person, rather than the abstract. They are extremely precious and remarkably rare. The rest can go take a flying leap.

Bottom line, being an open atheist in such an environment as you describe takes a thick skin. It shouldn't. It isn't fair in the slightest, and it wouldn't be required in a just world. But there it is.

One thing that might improve these conversations (a suggestion, if you're interested) is to steer them away from origins. Focus on the present -- you are an atheist, irregardless of how you came to that. Questions of "why" can be answered just as easily with your personal perspective, rather than the personal history that led to that perspective, and it puts the focus where it belongs. Leave stories of background to people you trust, because it seems there's a lot of people who can't be trusted with it.

And yes, it is extremely infuriating when people do this. Extremely. It just takes utter apathy to your actual thoughts and history, wraps it up in a pithy "well of course!" and serves it to you on a platter of condescension with cold, mealy fries. Take that apathy for what it's worth (nothing), and have as little to do as you can with people who don't actually care about you.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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18-11-2012, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2012 11:47 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 11:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  With atheism, there is no list.
Which is why I think that it doesn't necessarily have an influence either way. I'd say atheism is neutral because it has no impact on your self-esteem by itself. We are all born atheists after all.

(18-11-2012 11:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Being an atheist INCREASES self-esteem.
For the previously mentioned reasons, I think a wording along the lines of "De-converting from theism to non-theism can/is likely to increase your self-esteem." is more accurate.

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18-11-2012, 12:03 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 11:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 11:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  With atheism, there is no list.
Which is why I think that it doesn't necessarily have an influence either way. I'd say atheism is neutral because it has no impact on your self-esteem by itself. We are all born atheists after all.

(18-11-2012 11:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Being an atheist INCREASES self-esteem.
For the previously mentioned reasons, I think a wording along the lines of "De-converting from theism to non-theism can/is likely to increase your self-esteem." is more accurate.
Good distinction. I agree.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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18-11-2012, 01:36 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 05:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  Most of them probably aren't atheists either. Shocking

When are you all ever gonig to learn: atheism is self-defeating. The OP can't figure out why people are concerned about her being an atheist or how she became one. It's because they care that you don't become a self-defeating loser. Atheism, no matter how you slice it, leads to a diminished self-esteem. It simply has to. I mean case in point: Bird Guy.
Oh, can I play this game too?

When are you all ever going to learn: atheism is healthy. The OP's peers can't figure out why you wouldn't want to believe that you are simply a God's failed science project. It's because they feel an emptiness in life that they haven't figured out how to fill. Theism, no matter how you slice it, leads to believing you are barely worthy to walk this Earth. It simply has to. I mean case in point: theists.

Making up facts is fun; I can see the appeal.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-11-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 01:36 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Theism, no matter how you slice it, leads to believing you are barely worthy to walk this Earth. It simply has to. I mean case in point: theists.
Except if you're a Calvinist. Drinking Beverage

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18-11-2012, 02:29 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 02:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 01:36 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Theism, no matter how you slice it, leads to believing you are barely worthy to walk this Earth. It simply has to. I mean case in point: theists.
Except if you're a Calvinist. Drinking Beverage
Well played sir, well played.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-11-2012, 02:35 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 02:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 01:36 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Theism, no matter how you slice it, leads to believing you are barely worthy to walk this Earth. It simply has to. I mean case in point: theists.
Except if you're a Calvinist. Drinking Beverage
Not really. Strict Calvinists believe in the Total Depravity of Humankind. They may be elect, but they're still dirty, rotten, filthy sinners. It's just that they won the salvation lottery and we didn't.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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18-11-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: Tired...
(18-11-2012 02:35 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Not really. Strict Calvinists believe in the Total Depravity of Humankind. They may be elect, but they're still dirty, rotten, filthy sinners. It's just that they won the salvation lottery and we didn't.
Fair enough. Dodgy

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