Poll: Without any reference to whether or not you are certain of your answer or not, do you as an Atheist simply lack belief in God, or do you believe that there is in fact no God?
I lack belief in God.
I believe that God does not exist.
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To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
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13-01-2013, 05:55 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(12-01-2013 10:51 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Agreed, I fit into Agnostic Atheism as a general term. When confronted with specific Gods and their definitions, such as Yahweh, I can become an Anti-Theist.

I think QualiaSoup nailed the explanations in his video, 'Lack of Belief in Gods'.




That clip was great. I need to watch it a few more times so I can soak it all in and remember as much as I can.

I only had one small problem that maybe someone might be able to clear up for me.
Towards the end he seemed to make the claim that Atheists have been treated horribly.
That's like saying women have been treated horribly.
People of all different kinds have been treated horribly, and like he said, that is of the accountibility of the individuals practicing their ill behavior.
He seems so close to committing an informal fallacy, but I can't be so sure yet.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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13-01-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
I am technically an agnostic atheist, 6.9+ on the Dawkins Scale.

However, I believe there are no gods because there is no evidence that there are.
And the evidence that one would think should be there is missing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
Hey, Chas.

Thanks for that, but I'm not interested in Agnostic Atheist, Gnostic Atheist, or any other hyphenated term one can come up with. I'm just interested in who just straight up doesn't believe in God. I'm getting a lot of satelite answers but it seems like a pretty straight forward question to me.

Like for myself, if asked whether I believe in God, my answer is I don't know. All of my rationalisations aside, that's what I believe.

So should I put you down for, 'doesn't believe in God'?

To erbody else,

Like what I just said, I'm just interested in what you think. Forget the videos, forget the Dawkins scale, forget the terminology. I just wanna know if you believe there's no God.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-01-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(13-01-2013 08:31 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Thanks for that, but I'm not interested in Agnostic Atheist, Gnostic Atheist, or any other hyphenated term one can come up with. I'm just interested in who just straight up doesn't believe in God. I'm getting a lot of satelite answers but it seems like a pretty straight forward question to me.

Like for myself, if asked whether I believe in God, my answer is I don't know. All of my rationalisations aside, that's what I believe.

So should I put you down for, 'doesn't believe in God'?

To erbody else,

Like what I just said, I'm just interested in what you think. Forget the videos, forget the Dawkins scale, forget the terminology. I just wanna know if you believe there's no God.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


I thought it was clear: I believe that no gods exist. Any. Ever.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(13-01-2013 08:31 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Thanks for that, but I'm not interested in Agnostic Atheist, Gnostic Atheist, or any other hyphenated term one can come up with. I'm just interested in who just straight up doesn't believe in God. I'm getting a lot of satelite answers but it seems like a pretty straight forward question to me.

Sorry, but for me at least, the question is too vague and there aren't enough options to such a nuanced question.

If you had a more specific question, such as 'do you believe in Hell?' Or 'do you believe in Yahweh?' That could be more easily broken down into a binary answer.

So until I know which god specifically, or what god concept in particular you mean, I feel that you binary poll is inadequate to express my views. I guess I just see the question in too many shades of grey to give a black and white answer.

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13-01-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(12-01-2013 10:28 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:[Assertion of Agnosticism being in the middle of a spectrum with atheism and theism at both ends, in which atheism/theism is not a mutually exclusive set]
[Counterassertion of agnosticism being an independent variable on a second axis, in which atheism/theism IS mutually exclusive]
Both definitions are in common usage and so both are perfectly acceptable. Neither is "The One And Only You Shall Have None Before Me" definition. Like a lot of other things English language, sometimes it is important to seek clarification about which definition someone is using. This board definitely leans towards the two-variable, mutually exclusive model, but it still pays to remember that the confusion arises even here.

Now let's move on, shall we? I'm still waiting for a working definition of God.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-01-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(12-01-2013 04:30 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I lack a belief in a general God. A prime-mover, if you will.

I positively believe that the gods of Christianity, Islam, Norse mythology, and many, many other such gods do not exist.


That sums up my position as well.

I would also add that as new information and evidence arises on any subject, my beliefs and viewpoints will change according to what is observed and found to be evident.
I am positive that gods are non-existent in much the same way that I am positive that my next door neighbor does not know the 15 billion digital encryption code to the Swiss bank account of a random stranger who lives in Brussels.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-01-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
Thanks, Chas Smile

Hey, Evolution.

How about this. What is your answer to the following question. Does God exist?

Hey, Reltzik.

Answer the above question any way you see fit.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-01-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
(13-01-2013 08:31 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Thanks for that, but I'm not interested in Agnostic Atheist, Gnostic Atheist, or any other hyphenated term one can come up with. I'm just interested in who just straight up doesn't believe in God. I'm getting a lot of satelite answers but it seems like a pretty straight forward question to me.

Like for myself, if asked whether I believe in God, my answer is I don't know. All of my rationalisations aside, that's what I believe.

So should I put you down for, 'doesn't believe in God'?

To erbody else,

Like what I just said, I'm just interested in what you think. Forget the videos, forget the Dawkins scale, forget the terminology. I just wanna know if you believe there's no God.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


Matt when you ask yourself if you believe in a god, you haven't answered the question, when you say "I don't know"
It's a yes, I believe in a god or no, I don't believe in a god. The question is concerning BELIEF, not knowledge.
If you ask yourself if you know there is a god, then you can say I don't know.

Many people use the "i don't know" answer as an answer to things they are unsure about or as a way of not committing to a position out of a fear of either being wrong or for being judged by others for that position.

If I ask you "Do you believe that a micro organism is attached to one of your blood cells and it is slowly feeding" ?
This is something that you cannot know, but you could choose to believe if you wanted to.
There is no evidence of it but answering "I don't know" doesn't answer the question of if you believe it.
We already know that you can't know, but what we don't know is your position of belief about the existence of the organism.

Your position of belief is an assessment of your mental state and how well you are connected to observable reality.

Does that make things a bit clearer ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-01-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: To Be(lieve) or Not to Be(lieve)
Hey, Rahn.

You make an interesting semantical argument that I haven't heard before. It was very clear and very insightful. Thank you for that.

That being said, it's still retarded.

As for the fear thing, if I have demonstrated anything, it is that clearly, clearly, I don't give a flying fuck whether or not people judge me for my opinions Cool

My opinion was reached through reasoned thought, not fear.

The one thing you said (that contradicts your earlier statement) is that one can choose to believe if they want to. That suggests that there is a position that is neither belief, nor disbelief. It is the reservation of judgement.

If you see a pregnant woman, are you somehow forced to believe which sex the child will be? Or can you say, "I don't have a fucking clue."

A few years ago, a doctor uttered some terrifying words to me. "You may have lymphoma." The next three months were a living hell. I didn't know whether or not I had cancer and, quite contrary to your assertion, I neither believed nor disbelieved that I had it. That was the thing that made my life utter hell. I had nothing to latch onto. Was I going to be dead in four weeks? Would I have to endure chemo? Was it nothing? Was it operable? Inoperable? Was it another condition entirely? I had no idea. And I couldn't resign myself to anything because what would it do to me if I thought it was nothing and was suddenly told I would be dead before the end of the year? What if I planned my funeral and it was nothing. I didn't know, and I neither believed nor did I disbelieve. I was simply waiting to find out. It was not until the biopsy report came in from the brochoscopy that I believed that I don't have cancer. The same, as far as I am concerned, can be said of God. I don't know (which to me means I don't know, not I'm not certain) and I neither believe nor do I disbelieve.

I mean the very notion of simply lacking belief destroys your assertion. If you either believe or you do not, then lack of belief is utterly meaningless.

So when people define Atheist as lack of belief, well, I guess that applies to me. I don't self-identify as one, but c'est la vie. But what I do not have is disbelief. If someone asks me if God exists, my answer is definitive. I do not know. So I am curious. I know that no Atheists here believe in God, so that's ruled out. If anyone want's to admit that they neither disbelieve nor believe, then I'll happily welcome them as my Agnostic brothers and sisters Cool Many Atheists define it as lack of belief so I'm curious how many Atheists here simply lack belief and how many don't believe in God.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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