To Robby Pants (late responce)
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31-07-2015, 05:34 AM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(30-07-2015 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 07:46 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

If the Book of Genesis indeed claim to explain how the universe was created, it’s good to mention that this «universe» is so different from the real ones that even Tolkien fictional genesis of our planet is more scientifically accurate. At least in his version, there is the notion of continental drift and geothermic forces. The Bible is so wrong on this subject, that it can indeed be hard to understand what the hell did God created on those six days. It's even more ridiculous to think that God created the Earth and Sun, than the entire cosmos, since we know a lot more about the formation of stars and planets than about the formation of our universe. No matter how you look at it, the Bible is just mythology given too much importance.

My post was in response to Alla. I am not promoting Genesis. Facepalm

Chas, If one day I become so idiotic that I start to think that you believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, I give you the authority to develop psychic power à la South Park to destroy my poor pathetic body. I was attempting to describe how horrible Genesis makes a job at representing the real universe and how even more stupid it sounds when you try to link those claim to the creation of Earth instead of the universe making Alla beliefs even more demonstrably false if possible. Considering how ridiculous they are when applied to the universe, that's saying something.
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31-07-2015, 05:47 AM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(29-07-2015 07:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  I am not arguing this. I am saying that without having joy from making right choice you can't have fullness of joy. Because you won't know what it means to have joy from making right choice. If one piece of puzzle is missing it is not complete.
So I would say that it is important to have a choice so you may have fullness of joy.
...
It's hard for a 3 year old to comprehend algebra because it doesn't make any sense to him/her.
So, I am with you here.

But these both assume it has to be the case. Either God isn't powerful enough to make it any other way or God chooses it to be this way. Seeing as how these are both excuses used to explain evil and suffering in the world, it all comes down to God cannot prevent it or God chooses not to prevent it because he sees "choices" as more important than kids not being born with Tay Sachs.

It's been over a year, but I'm pretty sure that's what started this conversation back in the other thread. It's ad hoc assertions to explain away the "bad" parts without any evidence that isn't self-referencing.
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31-07-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 03:33 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  So, a couple of comments here. As capable as you guys are, I can't resist the Mormon ones. Especially with somebody like Alla, who is exhibit A time and time again for classic Mormon ideas, phrases, and examples of well understood mental manipulation techniques.

The notion that god is bound by higher eternal laws, which if violated would strip him of his title, is an excellent example of why Mormonism fails to address the question of origins. Rather than providing an answer to the infinite regress of gods creating gods, they embrace it as an explanation in and of itself. An eternity of god beings, all of the same god "species", can no more "create" us than a father "creates" his children. It isn't a matter of design and assembly, but of nature. This is the opposite of Occam's Razor because it relies upon a literally infinite set of complex supernatural explanations, which even then cannot be even considered as an explanation of origins. If god's can create one another infinitely, there is no reason the universe could not have simply existed eternally, thus requiring no original explanation. Notice how Alla's best explanation of where "Eternal Laws" come from is "I guess from nowhere."

Consider also the idea that in order to experience and understand moral good, it is necessary for moral evil to exist. Therefore the destruction of evil in the universe would rob us of the good as well causing morality to collapse into the neutrality of relativism. I find this line of argument particularly frustrating because it is so hypocritical. If they believe evil is only evil because there is good to compare it to, and vice versa, it seems to me that the Mormons are already admitting that their morality was never objective to begin with. Under such a system of ethics one must accept that even the best moral actions have no inherent value of their own, but are only relatively good by comparison to every negative alternative. Is there anything more morally relative than that?

It is certainly true that a child confronted with Algebra at an inappropriately young age will be hopelessly confused. However, when was the last time such a child was told their faith in the validity of Algebra is absolutely necessary for their immediate welfare? Indeed, that all his or her life's struggles and joys will hinge, not on the legitimate evidence that Algebra is valid, but on that faith from childhood days of ignorance? When was the last such child denied entrance into 9th grade Algebra 1? The true message of this apologetic might be that Mormons wish to raise a flock of ignorant children who are never permitted to mature beyond a child's simple faith into legitimate knowledge. I suppose the irony of the argument is that in insisting humanity is to puny and intellectually stunted to understand the ways of god, the leaders and apologists of the church ought to explain how it is their supposed understanding could be any better, especially with them speaking with the authority of god and all that. It might not be the blind leading the blind, but the ignorant child who trusted the wrong person teaching adults how to preserve their inner ignorant child and call it a virtue.

It is definitely worth noting that when Alla admits that the bible is full of errors and nonsensical stories that she is engaging in a common Mormon apologetic. You see, according to the articles of faith for the Mormons they "believe the bible to be the word of god as far as it is translated correctly." This weasel statement makes it easy for them to cherry pick with impunity the verses which support their wack-job theology while dismissing anything theologically inconvenient or contradictory as "translated incorrectly". The tactic is usually followed up by affirmations of the perfection of The Book of Mormon as compared to the flawed bible. Perhaps the most devastating individual fact I ever faced as a believer was that The Book of Mormon is itself mired in contradictions, and most especially blatant, embarrassing, childish, plagiarism. It contains entire sections of Bible passages, especially Isaiah, which contain the identical translation errors present in the version of the KJ translations available to Joseph Smith and his family. Just for extra credit, it also contains revolting racism, divinely endorsed atrocities, and the demeaning and abusive treatment of women.

Like so many Mormons, Alla loves to repeat phrases like "The fullness of joy" as though they meant anything outside of the specific context of her church. This is an excellent example of why Mormons are so often considered a dangerous cult by outsiders. This re-defining of common words into unique phrases with specific Mormon meanings is actually a psychological tactic commonly used by cults to influence their victims. In this way the cult leader(s) literally redefine the world for their followers, manipulating their perspectives, hopes, joys, and fears. Consider how invested she is in the idea of a future transcendent state of joy. Whatever her original view of how potentially happy she could be, she is no convinced that only the stupid or mentally sick could turn down this mystical promised emotional bliss.

There exists in LDS circles a frenzy of materials, written and otherwise, attesting to the supposed ultra-happiness of a life dedicated to the church. They claim to be the only people capable of unprecedented enjoyment in marriage, sex, family life, at work, and in recreation. These incredible claims are often expressed in a devaluation of non-believers and non-members. Just as with the way words and phrases are redefined to fit the cult's agenda, another psychological tactic is at play here. Playing up the claims, and playing down the fulfillment of other lifestyles as lacking absolutely essential elements is an effective means to manipulate people's doubts and hopes. Perfectly healthy normal people can begin to fear they might be inadequate or empty. Like all cults, the impossible promises require obedience, money, and a lifetime commitment, otherwise no nirvana or ultra-success for you.

Of course, she has all the tedious markers of your average fundamentalist. Her skepticism, although present and functional, is calibrated to only information which does not come from within her cult, regardless of the actual content or its evidence. Case in point, an infinite eternity of unknown and undefined supernatural beings seems a flawless idea to her, while historical facts about the founder of her cult are suspect. Question her about the validity of her beliefs and you can expect a circle jerk on the subject of faith as a supposed path to "Knowledge", yet question the quality of Joseph Smith's character and faith is not enough, she needs traditional evidence. For anyone who is interested, Richard Lyman Bushman, a well educated believing Mormon, wrote a wonderful biography of Joseph Smith called "Rough Stone Rolling". Although not as direct and critical as the famous "No Man Knows My History" he admits the truth of the very facts Alla is skeptical of. I rest my case with the word of a respectable LDS scholar who has every reason to lie or manipulate facts, but chose to tell the truth.

Well done Bowing

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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31-07-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 05:34 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  My post was in response to Alla. I am not promoting Genesis. Facepalm

Chas, If one day I become so idiotic that I start to think that you believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, I give you the authority to develop psychic power à la South Park to destroy my poor pathetic body. I was attempting to describe how horrible Genesis makes a job at representing the real universe and how even more stupid it sounds when you try to link those claim to the creation of Earth instead of the universe making Alla beliefs even more demonstrably false if possible. Considering how ridiculous they are when applied to the universe, that's saying something.

Sorry - it appeared you thought I was a crypto-creationist. Shocking

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-07-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 03:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  Did he remain a Mormon?

Yes. He is still a member in good standing. His book is full of justifications for his belief, especially when a certain uncomfortable or inconveniently suspicious fact needed to be addressed. He is part of a new growing trend among Mormon scholars and leaders who have decided they will lose fewer members by telling the truth and making excuses than by continuing to lie and avoid the issue.

This strikes me as yet another example of how change only takes place in Mormonism when membership is greatly threatened. Polygamy, institutional racism and bigotry, women's rights, and now historical deception have all been forced to go in the face of an overwhelming and opposing cultural majority. It really is depressing with these people because every seemingly good step in the right direction can be easily revealed to be cheap coercion by circumstance.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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31-07-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(30-07-2015 06:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 06:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  I see - you are not claiming the Bible proves anything, just that what it says is consistent with your claim.

However, the Genesis account is understood by most to mean creation of everything.
I do not know why it is understood this way. I do not see a word in the Bible that God Yahweh created everything.

So god didn't create everything. Maybe he didn't create that star over there, or the dinosaurs or Donald Trump. This certainly gives you a lot of wiggle room. If it's something you don't particularly like you can simply say, god didn't make that.

Not much of a god to worship if he didn't make everything. A second rate god at best.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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31-07-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(30-07-2015 07:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 06:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  I do not know why it is understood this way. I do not see a word in the Bible that God Yahweh created everything.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness.

And so on, and so forth. This pretty much implies everything. Earth, sun, moon, stars, ...
Yes, if you can tell me how big the heavens are according to the Bible.
God created heavens and earth and all that is in it.
How many heavens? how big are they?
Is heaven just one galaxy? Is heaven a group of galaxies? Is heaven absolutely all infinite space? What does the Bible say?
If Bible doesn't answer this question, no one can say that the Bible says:" God created absolutely everything".
The same with light. The Bible doesn't claim that God created light.
First, God is Light. It means that light already existed
Second, I came into a dark room. I say: "Let there be light" and then I turned on the switch. Did I create light?
God saw an earth without form and void in a dark place and decided to place the earth in a place where there is light - Heaven, for example.
later God created different sources of light, Sun is one of them.

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31-07-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 11:34 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 03:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  Did he remain a Mormon?
Yes. He is still a member in good standing. His book is full of justifications for his belief, especially when a certain uncomfortable or inconveniently suspicious fact needed to be addressed. He is part of a new growing trend among Mormon scholars and leaders who have decided they will lose fewer members by telling the truth and making excuses than by continuing to lie and avoid the issue.
Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion. Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS do not condemn people for their own opinions. I can have my wrong personal opinions and still be a Mormon in good standing.

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31-07-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 12:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Not much of a god to worship if he didn't make everything.
God that creates absolutely everything is god that never existed, doesn't exist and will never exist.
(31-07-2015 12:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  A second rate god at best.
God that creates heavens and earth and all that is in them is good enough for me to worship. BowingThumbsup

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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31-07-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: To Robby Pants (late responce)
(31-07-2015 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 12:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Not much of a god to worship if he didn't make everything.
God that creates absolutely everything is god that never existed, doesn't exist and will never exist.
(31-07-2015 12:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  A second rate god at best.
God that creates heavens and earth and all that is in them is good enough for me to worship. BowingThumbsup

"good enough" is a poor motivator for any rational means.

So you admit you don't have certainty that your God could not even be the arbiter of all things. How do you know your God has a Deity beyond it, and your God/Holy Spirit doesn't even know it. You say you have the experience of Faith from them and know it, and "its good enough for to worship" but that commits to the chance there could be a degree of knowledge you are limited from in that case.

You demonstrate you have low standards to please you with your case of God. That's fine, others have high standards and will hold to standards that apply universally to all creatures of existence.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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