To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
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21-11-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(Smart) Women don't want to be with men who think it must suck to be a woman.
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21-11-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(20-11-2013 09:41 PM)amyb Wrote:  
Quote:Not all women have to shave their legs - some have hairless legs. (I do)
So do I.

Quote:Nobody is making anybody shave their legs, the fact that some women feel they need to do it, doesn't make it so.
Woman are taught from an early age that their only value is their looks. If they want to get through life in the easiest way possible, taking the least amount of shit from people, they will conform. Looks are often the first thing people mention when talking about a woman. Consider Hillary Clinton and how many people say she has fat legs or something rather than talking about her politics. The same goes for many women in music (i've noticed this on a lot of heavy metal forums. I've even had my opinion on music dismissed because I'm not a porn-star-type, therefore, my opinion doesn't matter.)

I say this as someone who's taken a lot of shit from people for not wearing makeup, for not shaving, for not acting or dressing "like a lady," for the fact that I used to have short hair. I've been made fun of my entire life for my looks. Either it was my nose as a kid(it's sort of like Barbra Streisand's) or the fact that I look/act "butch" and like "masculine" things.

So no, I don't even blame the women who just do it to "fit in," because I'm sure that makes their lives a bit easier. And no one really wants the added annoyance of people talking shit on you and calling you a bulldyke all the time (and if you don't shave, they usually do). Women are told their whole lives that they are worthless and will never get a date unless they conform this this standard, and men are told that women who don't conform to this are disgusting and ugly, and they'd be embarrassed to be seen with them. (I know people who avoid posting photos of themselves with their girlfriends and going places with their girlfriends just because of the GF's weight, for example.) If you're attracted to men and you're told that men find hair repulsive, then it's not going to be an easy choice to NOT shave.

Have you thought about whether you actually like this type of woman or if you like that type of woman because it's what you've been told to like your whole life. It's the standard of feminine beauty in out culture. Images of such women are everywhere and we're told it's what women should look like. Basically, drag queens are the feminine ideal: all artifice with nothing of what they really are showing through. Consider how the standard of beauty is different in different places, or at different periods of history (like "rubenesque" women being glorified in the past for being fat, because that meant their family could afford lots of food and they could live a life of leisure. Same goes for paleness back then, it was a sign of not having to work in the fields, whereas today it's a sign that you can afford to lounge around at the beach). Hell, tabloids actually sell issues by publishing photos of "stars without makeup!" as if that's a scandalous thing, and people gawk at how "ugly" (=normal!) they look when they roll out of bed or go to the grocery store.

Quote:These cultural ideas of what women "should be" .... I feel our own culture (in the US, or at least what I've been exposed to) is IN A WAY doing these things in a much less extreme and different form.
Re: pornstars and women who resemble them: I'd certainly call all the breast implants and plastic surgery "extreme". I knew girls in high school that got plastic surgery. Have you ever watched "Dr 90210" or any of the other plastic surgery shows? That's gruesome, extreme shit. And it's not all that uncommon. Starving oneself to reach a certain ideal is also extreme, and anorexia can kill you.

Anyway, what I mean to say is this: sure, nobody is forcing a woman to shave at gunpoint (I hope), but you have to think about what the woman is giving up and what she will have to put up with if she decides NOT to do all those things, considering the value put on a woman's looks in society.

Your observations are correct but I think you are missing a big picture.

I'm not saying that society is not influencing what we consider beautiful, I am saying that that is inevitable , society will always set the standards of beauty or morals or whatever, and there will always be people who fall short.
You in part already explained that.
Quote: Consider how the standard of beauty is different in different places, or at different periods of history (like "rubenesque" women being glorified in the past for being fat, because that meant their family could afford lots of food and they could live a life of leisure. Same goes for paleness back then, it was a sign of not having to work in the fields, whereas today it's a sign that you can afford to lounge around at the beach).
What you fail to consider, in my opinion, is that if today things were different it will just be another group that falls short of societal expectations.
Like skinny girls back in the day, and they would be "complaining" about the social standards with the same rhetoric.
If having a Barbara Streisand nose was considered beautiful , girls with small noses would be made fun of. Plastic surgeons would just be making noses bigger instead of smaller.

And the same goes when considering "why are women judged first by their looks "
If they were judged first by their intellect , less intellectual ones would be complaining "why are women judged first by their intellect"

Instead of
Quote:Consider Hillary Clinton and how many people say she has fat legs or something rather than talking about her politics.
I would be answering to
"Consider Pamela Anderson and how many people say she is stupid rather then talking about her tits"
You don't hear her complaining that she made a career thanks to her looks, or that she demands to be judged first on her intellect.

The same goes for any imaginable trait that one can have and the society considers it desirable, some people will have it, some people won't . The ones who don't will be complaining.
But having a society that doesn't set standards...not gonna happen.

It comes down to the fact that people complain that society doesn't find traits THEY have desirable, and how that is unfair.
Like a short scrawny guy complaining because standards are such that tall guys with wide shoulders are considered attractive. Tough luck bro.

Ok, I am somewhat over simplifying and butchering the issue, but you get my point.

Quote:Woman are taught from an early age that their only value is their looks.
I don't think that's true , at least not that it is their "only value" .

But if you want to go there , men are thought from an early age that their only value is one of a work horse.

In some ways it sucks to be a woman, in some ways it sucks to be a man.

I guess what I'm saying is that everybody has to make an effort to fit in if they want to fit in. Social standards are the way they are, if you don't want to conform to them, you don't get to complain for not fitting in.
And asking of the society to fit around you is just...

Maybe social pressure to conform to standards and making fun and bullying the ones who don't is some kind of a indirect natural selection mechanism.

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21-11-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Seriously?

"I wouldn't want to do things to look after myself (?) that I don't already do", fair enough. 'Cept you already do a million and one things every day to establish and reinforce your social identity as a man, because, y'know, that's how gender roles work.

But of course, given the historically disadvantaged position women are generally in, we're not talking exactly equal pressures - but nothing's ever exactly equal, so...

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21-11-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:25 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I guess what I'm saying is that everybody has to make an effort to fit in if they want to fit in. Social standards are the way they are, if you don't want to conform to them, you don't get to complain for not fitting in.
And asking of the society to fit around you is just...

Except some of the rules are stupid.

I mean, I don't know if hopeless pessimism is a very productive attitude. Tongue. Hell, just look at how different things are compared to even a couple decades ago.

(21-11-2013 12:25 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Maybe social pressure to conform to standards and making fun and bullying the ones who don't is some kind of a indirect natural selection mechanism.

Pretty much.

Social cohesion is what keeps tribes of hunter-gatherers from all starving to death.

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21-11-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:18 PM)Flowergurl Wrote:  (Smart) Women don't want to be with men who think it must suck to be a woman.

Care to elaborate? Or specifically point out what you have issue with?
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21-11-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Guess I got lucky again.

No shaving needed, and I grew up into the hippie culture, where everything was natural. I went through a make-up phase in my early thirties, but got tired of it fast.

There are a lot of men who like natural women. Tons.

I never felt any of the above pressures to fit in. I never had the desire to fit in. And I never had the feeling that I didn't fit in. I guess I just couldn't care less. Tongue

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21-11-2013, 12:45 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 12:18 PM)Flowergurl Wrote:  (Smart) Women don't want to be with men who think it must suck to be a woman.

Care to elaborate? Or specifically point out what you have issue with?

Well, I like men who don't think of women as this other entity that they'd hate to imagine being. I enjoy who I am, and it would be strange even being friends with a guy who actually thought, "Haha, it would really suck being you." To me, it is a childish way to think. No one's perfect, but that isn't something I could tolerate. In the same way you couldn't tolerate a woman with an unshaven face. Wink
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21-11-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Quote:Except some of the rules are stupid.

I mean, I don't know if hopeless pessimism is a very productive attitude. Tongue. Hell, just look at how different things are compared to even a couple decades ago.

Of course some rules are stupid.

They change over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much.
But you have to live today, not decades ago or decades from now.

Anyone who wants to start a change in standards, be my guest. I am not a pessimist, I just play with cards that were dealt to me rather then ask for new ones.

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21-11-2013, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 12:57 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:45 PM)Flowergurl Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 12:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Care to elaborate? Or specifically point out what you have issue with?

Well, I like men who don't think of women as this other entity that they'd hate to imagine being. I enjoy who I am, and it would be strange even being friends with a guy who actually thought, "Haha, it would really suck being you." To me, it is a childish way to think. No one's perfect, but that isn't something I could tolerate. In the same way you couldn't tolerate a woman with an unshaven face. Wink

But I didn't say, "Haha it would suck to be you." I don't think the matter is funny at all. I'm saying there are obvious (to me) social pressures on women to put their body through specific procedures in order to even be considered normal.

How is showing sympathy towards what MANY women have to go through...a bad thing?

And please, introduce me to a guy who doesn't think that it would suck to have to shave his legs on a regular basis. I'm betting that is a small minority.
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21-11-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:46 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Of course some rules are stupid.

They change over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much.
But you have to live today, not decades ago or decades from now.

Sure.

And also you probably did live decades ago.

And also you probably will live decades from now.

(21-11-2013 12:46 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Anyone who wants to start a change in standards, be my guest. I am not a pessimist, I just play with cards that were dealt to me rather then ask for new ones.

But that's literally the dumbest attitude ever. And not even coherent! "Playing the cards" implicitly assumes some agency on your behalf. You can't not affect things. Even apathy is always a political action.

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